Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.crl.com!crl.com!nnrp2.crl.com!nnrp1.crl.com!joko From: Joe Kohn Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 30 Dec 1998 19:13:29 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 49 Message-ID: <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl5.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970307; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143559 Adalbert Goertz wrote: >Yes. Convert 3200 is much slower than SHR.view36c. You are entitled to your opinion, but since we're all computer users who should value "the scientific method," let's conduct an experiment to see if your claims can be substantiated or not. I will, today, upload to ground an 800K disk containing about 75 GIF graphics that Convert 3200 can convert to 16 color SHRs in approximately 8 minutes. You can download that GIF disk, and then time how long it takes to convert all the graphics to 16 color SHR format. I'll do the same again with Convert 3200, and then we can compare the time it took. Are you willing to do that? My guess, off-hand, is that it'll take you at least 2-3 hours to convert the graphics using SHRview. Prove me wrong by backing up your statements with proof, OK? On second thought, since I am the publisher of Convert 3200 and therefore obviously biased, maybe we can find an owner of Convert 3200 to download that disk and compare times with you. That would take me out of the loop, so to speak. Then again, the more people participating, the better. We could have different people converting the exact same graphics using all of the different graphic conversion programs, and get the definitive answer on which graphics conversion program is fastest. So, I hereby propose the "Great Graphics Conversion Shootout." The folks who download that disk should supply the answers to the following questions: Which program was used to convert the graphics? How long did it take? How fast does your IIGS run? To take disk access out of the formula, folks should copy the graphics to their hard drive and save them to their hard drive. After I upload the disk, I'll post the filename here. Joe Kohn Publisher of Convert 3200 http://www.crl.com/~joko Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.crl.com!crl.com!nnrp2.crl.com!nnrp1.crl.com!joko From: Joe Kohn Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 30 Dec 1998 19:55:52 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 23 Message-ID: <76e0g8$mcf$1@nnrp1.crl.com> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl3.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970307; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143560 I just uploaded "gifdisk.shk" to ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/upload I'm not sure how long it takes before that file will be moved to the Dec98 directory so that you can download it, but hopefully, it'll be soon. There are 77 GIFs in that file. Some of the GIFs started out as SHRs, and others were actually converted from Single Hi Res graphics to GIF format. I did all the conversions myself, years ago, using SHRConvert (the predecessor to SuperConvert) and some of the graphics are real nice looking and some are real dogs (with apologies to Bernie) ;-) Please...everyone....download those GIF graphics and use _your_ favorite graphics conversion program to convert them to standard 16 color 320 x 200 Super Hi Res graphics. And, time how long it takes. Then post your times. I can't imagine a better way to determine which graphics conversion program is fastest. So, go for it, Adalbert! Back up your claims with proof. And, the rest of you too. I think all of us will learn something from this experiment. Joe Kohn Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!nntp3.crl.com!nnrp1.crl.com!joko From: Joe Kohn Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 31 Dec 1998 00:28:17 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 63 Message-ID: <76egf1$oc8$1@nnrp1.crl.com> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76e0g8$mcf$1@nnrp1.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl2.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970307; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143575 I had a few extra minutes to spare today, so I used Convert 3200 to convert the 77 GIF graphics to 16 color SHR format. I have a stopwatch built into my Casio wristwatch, and from the instant I double clicked on the Convert 3200 program icon until all 77 graphics were converted and saved back to my Focus hard drive, a grand total of 10 minutes and 25 seconds elapsed. Using the Calculator NDA, and dividing 77 into 625 seconds, that's an average of 8.1 seconds for each GIF graphic to get converted and saved to disk. 8.1 seconds!! 8.1 seconds to convert a GIF graphic to a 16 color Super Hi Res graphic! 8.1 seconds. My IIGS has a TWGS that runs at 7 Mhz. As an explanation, Convert 3200 has a Convert All option that will convert all the graphics in a folder, with no human intervention necessary. The way it works is that you do have to manually load in one graphic, convert it, and then save it so that Convert 3200 knows what directory you want converted, what you want to convert it to, and where you want to save it. In my case, it took exactly 1 minute 30 seconds from the time I double clicked on the Convert 3200 program icon until that one preliminary graphic was saved to disk. So, once that was done, it took 8 minutes and 55 seconds to convert the remaining 76 graphics from GIF to SHR format. I'll be very curious to see how long it takes others of you to convert that same GIF graphic disk using other programs. And, in case anyone here wants to see the converted graphics, I think I'll just go ahead and upload the conversions too to the same ground upload directory. That way you can see for yourself what kind of job Convert 3200 does of converting graphics, and you can check the creation times to "keep me honest." I'll upload that as "shrdisk.shk" For those of you who are curious about Convert 3200 and where to buy it, it is available exclusively from Shareware Solutions II for all of $15, and that includes postage to anywhere in the world. Additionally, if you're a subscriber to Shareware Solutions II, you already know the magic words to say to get a copy of Brutal Deluxe's LemminGS tossed in for free when you order Convert 3200 ;-) You can order Convert 3200 from: Shareware Solutions II 166 Alpine St San Rafael, CA 94901 There's screen shots and technical information about Convert 3200 available at http://www.cyberstation.fr/~zardini and additional purchasing info can be found at http://www.crl.com/~joko And, bringing this back full-circle, the source code for Convert 3200 is also available, and both Brutal Deluxe and Shareware Solutions II would be more than pleased if some programmer used that source code to create a Netscape-like program for the IIGS. If you think about it, waiting 8 seconds for a NetscapeGS-like program to display a GIF on screen, certainly wouldn't cause IIGS users to complain about the 'world wide wait.' OK, Adalbert, your turn. Let's see how many hours it takes you to convert those 77 GIFs using your favorite graphics conversion program. Joe Kohn Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.idt.net!WCG!nntp2.crl.com!crl.com!nnrp1.crl.com!joko From: Joe Kohn Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 31 Dec 1998 01:16:00 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 8 Message-ID: <76ej8g$onc$1@nnrp1.crl.com> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76e0g8$mcf$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76egf1$oc8$1@nnrp1.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl4.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970307; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143581 Both archives have now been uploaded to the upload directory at ground. gifdisk.shk = The 77 graphics in GIF format shrdisk.shk = The 77 graphics in SHR format And, may the best program win the Great Graphics Conversion Shootout! Joe Kohn Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!news.altair.com!news.kodak.com!news-nysernet-16.sprintlink.net!news-in-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp3.crl.com!nnrp1.crl.com!joko From: Joe Kohn Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 31 Dec 1998 01:42:11 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 19 Message-ID: <76ekpj$oun$1@nnrp1.crl.com> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76e0g8$mcf$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76egf1$oc8$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76ej8g$onc$1@nnrp1.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl5.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970307; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143582 Adalbert - Arrggghhh! Or, to quote Lt Cmd Scott of the Starship Enterprise: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." After going to all that effort to dispute your claim that there's a faster graphics conversion program than Convert 3200, I downloaded the program you claimed is faster, and I was quite peeved to see that it is not even a graphics conversion program. SHRview is a graphics viewer and Convert 3200 is a graphics conversion program. So, we're comparing apples and oranges. Convert 3200 is the fastest graphics conversion program ever written for the IIGS. I offer my proof in the 77 GIF graphics that were converted by Convert 3200 to SHR in 10 minutes and 25 seconds. Happy New Year. Joe Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.crl.com!crl.com!nnrp2.crl.com!nnrp1.crl.com!joko From: Joe Kohn Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 31 Dec 1998 02:08:12 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 32 Message-ID: <76emac$p6s$1@nnrp1.crl.com> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76e0g8$mcf$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76egf1$oc8$1@nnrp1.crl.com> <76ej8g$onc$1@nnrp1.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl5.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970307; sun4m SunOS 4.1.3_U1] Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143585 >This is important as I was going to try it with SuperConvert v4 and >it does differentiate between default colour palette, closest match, >pattern dither, grayscale and stuff. Jeff - Use whichever method you feel like using. Just make sure to tell us which method you did use. Between you and me, I already know which is the fastest conversion program, but I was trying to offer some proof against some other claims. At this point, after finding out that the purported faster program isn't even a graphics conversion program, I feel like I wasted some of my time and I don't necessarily feel like asking others to waste their time. So, let's leave it like this: If _anyone_ can convert those 77 GIF graphics to 16 color SHR format graphics in less than 8 minutes, 25 seconds using a program other than Convert 3200, I'll give that person $100 of products from Shareware Solutions II. The only requirement is that it be done on a IIGS. Just name the program that did it faster so I can substantiate the claim, and the 100 bucks of Shareware Solutions II products is yours. As an example, 100 bucks will get you a 6 issue subscription to the newsletter, several CD-ROM collections, and a IIGS Universal Spell Checker. Prove to me that Convert 3200 isn't the fastest graphics conversion program ever written for the IIGS, and I'll gladly send you that $100 worth of products. Joe Kohn http://www.crl.com/~joko Path: news1.icaen!news.uiowa.edu!NewsNG.Chicago.Qual.Net!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!wesley.videotron.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!not-for-mail From: spec@vax2.concordia.ca (Mitchell Spector) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Graphics Conversion (was Re: NetScape 5) Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:24 EDT Organization: Opus One Lines: 58 Distribution: world Message-ID: <30DEC199821244513@vax2.concordia.ca> References: <00009f3f719-597-7877@coloradosprings.org> <76du0p$m1g$1@nnrp1.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vax2.concordia.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50AXP Xref: news1.icaen comp.sys.apple2:143588 In article Joe Kohn writes... >Adalbert Goertz wrote: > >Yes. Convert 3200 is much slower than SHR.view36c. > >You are entitled to your opinion, but since we're all computer users who >should value "the scientific method," let's conduct an experiment to see if >your claims can be substantiated or not. I think I understand why he believes SHRView is faster. Convert 3200 *is* extremely fast (certainly much faster than SHRView) but when you are converting a large batch of GIF files--such as the 75 GIF examples you uploaded to Ground--you stare at a progress indicator until every image has been converted. After which you would most likely quit the program and view the converted SHR images in a slide show manner with a Finder extension, like Brutal Deluxe's PicView or Jupitar Systems' FinderView. SHRView, on the other hand, converts images one at a time. You drop the program into a directory where all your GIF images are and it will display them in a slide show manner. Viewing all 75 GIFs this way will take *much* longer, but you get to see some results while waiting. The process goes: Wait several moments, stare at image, click for the next to be loaded. Wait, stare, click. Wait, stare, click; and so forth for all 75 images. Oh, did I mention if you want to see the images again, you have to go through the entire process all over? :) As mentioned, Convert 3200 is a _convertor_, SHRView is a _viewer_. >I will, today, upload to ground an 800K disk containing about 75 GIF >graphics that Convert 3200 can convert to 16 color SHRs in approximately >8 minutes. Some things to keep in mind when using SHRView, going from memory here: - If the image is larger than 320x200, you have to scroll the screen - If the image is more than 16 colors, it is converted to greyscales - Images are converted to SHR in memory only, then thrown away - Runs under ProDOS 8, is automatic (no real user controls or menus) - GIF images must be in same directory as program I think it is useful if you have no hardrive and want to see a slide-show of GIF images you've just downloaded. I personally find LordHighGiffer a better alternative if you want to view GIF images in a slide show manner (unfortunately Todd never released it, it's one of those things I was lucky enough to beta test). Personally, I've found it handy to have Prism, Convert 3200 and SuperConvert available on my hardrive for converting graphics. Though when it comes to *speed*, Joe isn't kidding in the least when he says Convert 3200 is FAST. :-) One other thing that might be of interest to anyone reading this. Convert 3200 is the only program I know of that can export very large APF images (such as those created by a Quickie scanner) toa graphic format a PC or Mac can read. Mitchell Spector spec@vax2.concordia.ca