America Online Apple II Art & Graphics Forum conference log of May 15, 1992 edited by Dave Seah topic: Digitizing, Animation & the AST Vision Plus Technical Stuff (Happy Birthday Steve!) location: AGR Conference Room --- LOG PREAMBLE - Happy Birthday to SteveB! --- AFL Marty HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEVE AFL Marty (just in case everyone didn't know :) AFC DaveS Everyone send Steve a Happy Birthday IM! AFC Tosh Birthday Boy. :) AFA Binky Nuzz Oh, Its Steve's birthday AFC Ted Shall I see if I can find my cake macro? AFC SteveB utoh :) AFL Marty Does a naked lady jump out of it? :) AFC Tosh Thats Nekkid. AFC Ted not sure whether it's j7 or j5 :) (it's from one of the old jeopardy macros) AFC DaveS Pointers to Yellowstone? WIsh I had some...I've only flown over it. Nuzz So Steve, how old are you now AFC SteveB Over the Hill, Mike AFC SteveB 15. :D AFC DaveS The big 15! AFC Tosh :) Nuzz The big One-Five AFC Ted here we are... AFC Tosh lol AFC DaveS Scott! AFC DaveS Dude! AFC Ted AFC Ted AFC Ted A A AFC Ted A O O A AFC Ted O A | | A O AFC Ted | O | | O | AFC Ted | ^^^|^|^^^^^^^|^|^^^ | AFC Ted ,,,,^^|```` | | | | `````|^^,,,,, AFC Ted @ | | | | @ AFC Ted |@@@@@aaaaaa | | aaaaaaa@@@@| AFC Ted | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa@ | AFC Ted | | AFC Ted ;=+/| |\+=; AFC Ted / | | \ AFC Ted \ @@@aaaa aaaaa@@@ / AFC Ted \__ @@@aaaaa aaaaaaa@ __/ AFC Ted \_______ @aaaaaaaaaaaa@ ______/ AFC Ted \_______ _______/ AFC Ted \______________/ AFA Binky 15 like in fifteen yeras old? AFC Ted Hi Scott :) AFC Tosh Yea Ted!!! AFC SteveB You got it, Binkster! AFC DaveS Happy Birthday to you! You smell like a shoe! I hope I don't puke... Nuzz Being 15 and so talented is obscene :) AFA Binky Hey Scotto AFC SteveB Appreciate it, Ted! :) AFC DaveS HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOOOOUUUU! AFL Scott Sorry I'm late, I was in the bathroom. :( AFC SteveB Yo Scott! AFC SteveB :) AFC DaveS It's Steve's birthday! :) AFA Binky Hope everything came out alright, Scott... AFC Tosh The kids say Hurl now Dave! AFL Scott Happy birthday, Steve! :) AFC DaveS ooops...that's right, Tosh! Nuzz You shouldn't Read InCider that often Scott AFC DaveS Happy Birthday to You! You smell like a squirrel! I hope I don't hurl... AFL Scott It's been coming out alright since Wednesday night, Bink! :) AFC SteveB I'm so happy I think I'm gonna hurl! :) AFC DaveS Happy Birthday to YOOOOUUU! AFC Ted Dave...isn't it nice to know you're not a kid any more? ;) AFC Tosh :) AFC DaveS Yeah :) I wish I weighed as much as I did back then, though :) AFC Ted me too --- START OF EDITED LOG --- AFL Scott So, tonight is Paint Program night! AFC Tosh oooo I like Paint programs AFL Scott Me too! AFC DaveS You know, I found a couple more people who don't like DPaint on the Internet :) AFC Ted me too AFL Marty ROTFL AFL Marty A "couple". AFC DaveS LOL...yep, a couple :) I didn't want to look TOO hard ;) AFL Marty :) AFC Tosh DPII is all my kids will use now. FredW GS Hey Scott, I FINALLY got an algorithm that does good RAWDATA->3200 conversions. AFC DaveS Really? Can't figger out them youngsters these days, eh? :) AFC Tosh (though my 7 year old wants Kid Pix cuz she has an LC at school) AFL Scott Me, I'm using DreamGrafix more each day. It's really a great program! But I still have problems with 3200 color mode and getting the palettes right. AFC DaveS I find slinging colors around in DG a bit cumbersone myself, Scott. AFC Tosh 3200 is tough.....I prefer 256 myself. AFC DaveS I like the 256 color mode, too. AFC Ted Tosh's daughter...she wants to use an M- computer AFC DaveS What is KidPix? FredW GS So what digitizer would you recommend right now Scott? AFL Scott Still the Visionary. But you'll have a hard time finding one. AFC Tosh Kid Pix is big on Rubber Stamping and effects.....I don't like it because it doesn't encourange the kids to draw for themselves. AFL Scott Although, I know of a company that has about 325 of the AST Vision Plus boards just waiting to be upgraded. AFC DaveS DPaint is good for stamping stuff :) AFL Scott All they need is a new ROM and software... Hmmm. :) FredW GS What does the upgrade entail Scott...User do-able? AFL Scott Welcome to AGR and a Paint Program bonanza! :) AFL Scott If you have questions and comments about Apple II paint program, feel free to chime in! Topino I got bumped :( I feel like AFC DaveS :) AFC DaveS Except not as coool :) Scott1001 I've got a question about platinum paint... AFL Scott Sure, fire away, Scott! Scott1001 When I paste something larger than the window, whats not showing gets cropped. Is this a bug? AFL Marty That's a feature. AFC Ted Scott, it's an annoyance. AFC DaveS The only software I've seen that doesn't crop is the Quickie 2.0 software. AFL Scott Most likely isn't a bug. Most paint programs don't handle that situation well though. Topino EV doesn't :) AFL Scott They could handle it, but they often opt not to in favor of saving memory. On a lot of systems, that doesn't make much sense. Scott1001 Paintworks Gold would do it, I think? AFL Scott Paintworks Gold doesn't let you resize the "window". In fact, there are no windows. AFC Ted I don't remember about PWG. It had a pretty big painting window, so it's not so noticeable AFC Tosh My question would be....What use is a picture that is bigger than the screen? AFC DaveS Besides, most of the really nifty stuff is free :) AFC Ted Good Question, Tosh AFL Scott I know you cannot cut an area bigger than the screen, though. AFC DaveS Printing? Topino On the GS, it's a problem, but on other systems, larger pics are WIDELY used for many things... printing (thanx Dave!) is a good example. AFC Tosh Good Dave.....but thats a low priority with me. AFL Scott Donald. Paintworks Gold and PNT format pictures are keyed to the size of an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. AFC Tosh Name another. Scott1001 If you wanted to make a border around the entire document AFL Scott That means you can paint a cover sheet for a report or something like that, and have it print on exactly one sheet. Topino If you had HIGHER rez that that of the GS, you'd like your pics to be 800 x 600 or 1025 x 768, wouldn't you? AFC DaveS Everytime I print on my printer, it comes out more than a page :( Topino 1024, I meant. AFC Ted But Dino, we don't have higher res. I wanna display them on my GS AFL Scott No, not necessarily, Dino. AFC Tosh Not if I couldn't see it on one screen Dino. AFL Scott You need to set top of form properly, Dave. AFL Scott If I print a 396x320 picture it fits _exactly_ on one sheet. AFC DaveS But I do, Scott. I TOF right at the bleeding, ragged edge of the paper. Topino That's if you're using it on a GS Tosh, on other systems pics get printed for many uses (DTP, for example). AFL Scott What kind of printer? AFC DaveS Maybe it's just because I have an Epson compatible printer...the printer driver never seems to work with it right. AFL Scott That's probably it, Dave. AFC Tosh When I look around at things I don't have to scroll my eyes to see everything. Topino Tosh, if you had a 2 page color display, you wouldn't scroll! Topino :) AFC Tosh We are talking about Apple II's here Dino. :) Scott1001 Does anybody here use a HP DeskJet? Topino me :) Topino Tosh, that's why I said _if_ you weren't using an Apple II :) AFC Tosh So besides printing....what use is a pic larger than one screen? AFC DaveS I can't print TEACH docs or any text...it always comes out wrong. AFC DaveS *sigh* AFC DaveS Maybe a scrolling game screen? Something cool and wide, you could pan left...revealing the XJ-500 Super Duper Space Interceptor Scramble Jet! AFL Scott Dino, you'll find out when you work with different hardware that it's not always necessary or even desireable to have a picture fill the screen. FredW GS You could get the picture from another source which has a higher rez than the GS, and you don't want to crop or downsample. AFC Tosh That's different Dave...... Topino Scott, I DO use different grfx hardware ALL the time... I like my pics the size they are, in the high rez they are, and in the color they are :) AFC DaveS Well, Tosh, I often make > screen size pics because I don't want to trade detail for screen size. AFL Scott What's more important is an accurate representation of the final output. Topino true Scott. AFC DaveS I suppose it depends what you are doing. Topino Too bad we can't upgrade GS VRAM :) FredW GS I really wish one of the DTP programs would create a picture within a document which is the best PS can do for the space allocated...instead of a bitmap of what is on the screen. AFC DaveS Anyway, I'm glad the ability to do > screen sized pictures is here. AFC DaveS There may not be too many applications numerically, but the ones that exist are justification enough, IMHO. AFC Tosh <---Still waiting for programs which exploit the hardware we do have now..... AFC Tosh like animation. AFL Scott On the GS, it's here, too. It's always been here. AFC Tosh Digitized animation. AFC DaveS That would be cool. FredW GS Is it possible to do a 3200 animation program? Scott1001 I can get almost laser quality line art with GWIII and a HP DeskJet Topino Not really, but it would be REAL small sprites :( AFC Tosh QuickTime GS would still head my want list. :) AFC DaveS Maybe limited...if the programmer tried to move too much memory to get a sizable area of the screen moving, he/she couldn't keep the palettes updated fast enough and the colors would flicker. FredW GS I have a feeling CPU tim would limit it too much. CaptainTom I've seen some quicktime stuff but it wasn't as impressive as I thought... CaptainTom On an LC some of it was rather disappointing... Topino If you had a FAST CPU it would help. Scott1001 I have a GS animation that was converted from a MAC quicktime movie AFL Scott If I were to animate with multiple palettes, I would let 16 palettes be my limit. FredW GS Ok here's a question...does anyone use MOVIE.VIEWER and would anyone use it more if I updated it? Topino whazzat Scott10001? AFC DaveS Maybe not too much help, though. Memory still chugs pretty slowly, even if the processor is ZIP'd or TWGS'd. AFC DaveS I honestly haven't had a chance to look at it, Fred :( AFA Andy I use it Fred :) AFL Scott I'd probably use it, but it needs to be faster. Scott1001 I got it off genie.. It is in a Paintworks animation file and it is flicker free. Topino But dave, if memory swapps were allowed to be done faster, thru a faster bus :) AFL Scott What is it of? Scott1001 Its a rotating torso Topino How many colors? Scott1001 grey scale FredW GS The speed is limited by HD speed Scott...There's not too much programming will speed it up save using some sort of stream mode or something. AFL Scott True, but assembler can help. CaptainTom There is also a rotating bust of Queen Nefertiti... Scott1001 Has this been uploaded yet? AFC Tosh How does Quicktime work.....It must dump frame info to memory then write to the disk later....... Scott1001 I've seen it work. Its _____very_slow_____\ AFC Tosh Slow to produce a movie? Scott1001 Slow to digitize each frame. AFC Tosh That would be OK....its the showing that counts. AFL Scott Quicktime's speed depends entirely on the platform and the digitizing hardware used to capture. AFL Scott Upload your 3200 color converter! AFC Tosh Could the EV+ dump the info in a way that could be capturted? AFL Scott Not for long with the current ROM. Scott1001 The Mac that I saw it on could also put a video signal in a window on the desktop with full color ... it was neat! FredW GS There's a problem with that Scott... On a GS it takes 10 HRS. AFL Scott So, people will wait! Upload it! :) AFC DaveS Wow...is that with acceleration, Fred? FredW GS No that is not accelerated. FredW GS I'm running it at school right now...takes 30 minutes :) AFC Tosh 10 hrs...30 mins? Lost me. AFC DaveS What's it written in? C? AFL Scott Tosh, the more complete answer to your question is this: Not right now. Remember, it only does AFA Andy BASIC, Dave ;) FredW GS I'm trying to find short-cuts. too speed it up...but it needs assembly. FredW GS Nope Basic Dave >blush< AFL Scott 15 frames per second and those frames are really culled from two fields. That means that there is no way right now unless the capture area or the capture sequence is modified. FredW GS The 3200 converter takes a Computereyes Raw DAta file and makes it a true 3200 color pic. They look very good now. It's in Micol BASIC for the GS. AFC DaveS Don't be embarassed, Fred...at least you wrote one. AFC DaveS ...name 10 people who have :) James S WI I don't know if this hase been covered but when will Prism be out? AFC Tosh I think 15 or 12 frames per sec would be fine...... AFC Tosh Whats the hang up? FredW GS And I would GLADLY collaborate with anyone would like to port the routine to C or assembly. AFC DaveS Topino is the local Prism representative, James! FredW GS We'd have a new utility and I'd learn some C and desktop. FredW GS Or assembly and desktop. AFL Scott Tosh, the problem with that is still in the design of the ROM. You see, you get parts of two fields and that induces motion artifacts. Topino Prism should be out within 2 months James. FredW GS Would there be a noticeable speed increase between BASIC and Pascal. James S WI 2 months :( Why? The demos I saw months ago looked great. FredW GS Please note MICOL BASIC is compiled. FredW GS I have ORCA PASCAL, got disgusted with the lack of DISK I/O and gave up on it. I should have gotten C. AFC Tosh I guess what I'm asking is...Could the GS, with enough memory capture 48 frames at 12 FPS and hold that in memory.....then take its time writing those to a hard drive. AFL Scott Yes, it could, Donald, but you proably wouldn't like the result. AFL Scott It would have streaks in it just like it does when you digitize to the screen in mono full screen when there's motion. AFL Scott In four megs...you could probably fit about 90 or so frames depending on what you have loaded. AFC Tosh Is that because of processor speed or ROM stuff Scott? AFL Scott The ROM stuff. Processor speed is irrelevant. AFC DaveS Motion streaks, or glitches-streaks? AFL Scott See, processor speed would be irrelevant because you could precalculate the addresses for DMA before digitizing and in six instructions pop them into the address register. AFC Tosh Go on Scott. AFL Scott That way, you'd only be exec'ing six instructions between each frame, hence processor speed is negated. AFC Tosh OK.....so you could get somewhat decent results on a slow moving subject? AFC Tosh Like a head talking? AFL Scott Perhaps. AFL Scott But, you'd have to have that ability. Allison right now doesn't provide that ability. AFC Tosh Well, keep it in mind Boss. :) AFC DaveS Scott, can you get faster rates if you don't grab the whole screen? AFL Scott You can get faster rates if you grab every fourth horizontal (x) line. AFC Tosh Even 6 FPS would be fine for a talking head.....I shoot 6 and 12 quite often for a funky look on movement.....It settles down quite well when the subject doesn't move. AFL Scott After every fourth line, you can keep that in a buffer for later processing. The processing would entail adjusting the aspect ratio to make each frame proportional instead of simply a stretched version of each screen. AFC DaveS What a cool halloween project that would be...evil talking head in the window. Zorkster AFC DaveS Tosh, you have something cooking in the ways of animation? AFC DaveS (imagining Chris McKinsey as the Evil Talking Head in a certain game :) AFC DaveS (with a curly Dr. Who wig :) AFC Tosh Nope.....I would just like to have the ability to do it. :) AFC SteveB ROTFL! AFC Tosh Good Idea Dave.....Gotta get some footage of him. :) AFC DaveS What do these streaks look like, Tosh? AFC Tosh Its like Video Tearing if you've seen that....when your vcr is not tracking correctly. AFC DaveS "Figure out how to shave another dozen cycles off my animation loop, but it's a secret" - C.M. AFC Tosh Nyah Nyah.....CM. AFC DaveS So it really renders it unusable, eh Tosh? Is the entire scanline hosed? AFC SteveB "I figured out how to shave!" - C.M. AFC DaveS "Ow!" - C.M. AFC SteveB :) AFC Tosh Yes....but it could be deleted with a paint program. AFC DaveS Any motion at all destroys the entire line? :( AFC Tosh Careful guys.....you're talkin about my partner. ;) AFC DaveS "Tosh is my partner" - C.M. AFC Tosh The signal just gets a little behind the dislpay....or ahead. AFC DaveS "Uh oh...pushed him too far!" - D.S. AFC DaveS It depends on which way the movement is, Tosh? AFC Tosh It will be done when its done...D.M. --- END OF LOG --- This transcript is copyright (c) 1990 by NoseWorks, Inc. It may be uploaded to any information service/BBS provided that it is unedited.