America Online Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Date: 4/13/90 Conference moderated by: W. Scott Gentry Edited by: Dave Seah Topic: Nude Graphics on America Online Location: Graphics Chat AFL Scott Welcome to the Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Confernce for AFL Scott Friday, April 13, 1990. Happy Easter to everyone! AFL Scott Tonight we're going to explore an issue that's had quite AFL Scott a bit of response in our Let's Discuss... Message boards AFL Scott in AGR. Nude pictures: Do we need or want them? Joining AFL Scott us tonight is Kent Fillmore, Forum Producer, Apple Forums. AFL Scott Kent, as you may know is my boss. In addition to that, AFL Scott he's also an employee of Quantum and as such, is tasked AFL Scott with interpreting and enforcing guidelines set forth by AFL Scott Quantum Computer Services with respect to propriety in AFL Scott files released by forum staff. Before we get started AFL Scott tonight, I'd like to remind you all of a few things going AFL Scott on in AGR this month. AFL Scott First and foremost... the second annual AGR Art contest AFL Scott has concluded, judging is in progress. Here's a list of AFL Scott prizes so far... AFL Scott Overall winner will get a Quickie Hand-held Scanner AFL Scott from Vitesse. First place in the SHR Category will get AFL Scott HyperStudio from Roger Wagner Publishing. Second place AFL Scott in SHR will get Salvation from Vitesse. Third place will AFL Scott receive The Graphics Exchange from Roger Wagner Publishing. AFL Scott DHR/HGR prizes have not yet been decided. We will announce AFL Scott the winners of the contest at the conclusion of next weeks AFL Scott conference. Which brings me to the topic of next weeks AFL Scott conference... Thunderware, makers of Thunderscan and AFL Scott Lightning Scan will be our special guests! Tune in! AFL Scott Now...Nude pictures in files... You'd be surprised at the AFL Scott number of people who ask me why we can't release nude pictures AFL Scott in AGR. The answer is simple. Quantum says so. AFL Scott With that out of the way... (blunt as it was)... AFL Scott Let me introduce to you, Kent Fillmore! AFL Scott Welcome to AGR, Kent!:) Sorry about the hot seat AFL Scott intro... I'm trying to be a good little Geraldo clone..:) AFC DaveS :) A GibberFC ()()()()() AFL Marty {S Applause} AFP Draco Thanks Scott (I think) AFL Scott Kent, in the past, we've discussed the liklihood of nude pictures online... AFL Scott can you give us an update on the status of Quantums position? AFP Draco Sure Scott... AFP Draco A little background first? AFL Scott Sure! Go ahead!:) AFP Draco QCS First started with Quantum-Link... AFP Draco A C-^$ information network in affiliation with Commodore Computer Services. AFP Draco One factor that was agreed by both parties was that Q-Link was to be a family oriented AFP Draco information system. AFP Draco So... AFP Draco no nudes. AFP Draco When QCS made their initial agreement with Apple for AppleLink Personal Edition... AFP Draco the same standards were agreed upon. EthanA NUDE LIBRARIES!!!! :) EugeneG2 YES AFP Draco Since that time, it has remained Quantums policy that any and all information networks AFP Draco produced by QCS will be "Family oriented". EthanA :booo: :Hisss: AFP Draco In otherwords something that anyone from the president on down would not be asahmed to AFP Draco have their children log onto and go anywhere. EugeneG2 NO! YES TO NUDE. AFP Draco Sorry gang - that's the current policy Stracka Boooooo! RICKP47 And so why then are there classifieds re: transvestites, slavery, etc. Rob Morgan that does'nt keep people online! EthanA Well... What about Freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution? :) AFL Scott Ok... that's what we know now... How about in the future? What does that have AFL Scott in store for us now that the system has expanded to include Macs and soon... AFL Scott Evil Beast people. EthanA It is are RIGHT to have nude libraries/ :) MauriceG1 Evil Beast People?? AFL Scott I B M... Evil Beasties..:) Stracka If people want nudes let them have them its a free country. AFP Draco Well, all I can say about the fitire is that it's been my experience that QCS *IS* capable of AFP Draco re-evaluating their policies from time to time. Stracka IBM, NO!!! EthanA ExAcTlY my point Stracka MauriceG1 GASP! Oh, those evil beast people AFP Draco Can I comntinue, Scott? PaulE2 WE HAVE ENOUGH TRASH AROUND.. DON'T FORGET THERE ARE MANY KIDS WITH ACCESS TOO. AFL Scott Sure, go ahead, Kent! Stracka What is so bad about nudes, every one sees someone nude in there lifetime. AFP Draco Hay - ya'll - let me just give it to you straight... ok? EthanA Don't let your kids sign on there Paul. If you don't have enough control over EthanA your kids, why should we suffer? AFP Draco Several producers run AOL. I happen to be the one that runs The FOrums. AFP Draco I don't ahve any say-so about the Classified. Yes! I Know what's in there. AFP Draco It doesn't bother me in the slighted, but I am SURE that there are some people online who AFP Draco ARE offended by it. Rob Morgan can't a password system be used for adult purposes! AFP Draco The pollicy *I* enforce in The Forums is the one I'm told to; no nudes. AFP Draco (I'kll get your questions in a sec) PaulE2 TO EthanA.. Didn't you ever sneak something when your parents backs are turned? AFP Draco Now I'm a pretty liberal guy, and I'm as capable of allowing a good stretch of the rules as the next. AFP Draco But when QCS tells ME "no nudes', it's what we have to observe. AFP Draco A GibberFC There are several Sticky issues with Nudes... first and formost is Copyright... if you digitize A GibberFC a picture that is copyrighted by Playboy or Penthouse... they could have a field day in court.. EthanA Ok... :Taking floor: If people don't want to see Nude Libraries... EthanA Nobody is gonna make them. It is not like... EthanA when you sign on "Welcome to AGR Nude Libraries" EthanA It is there choice to get there! PaulE2 FINAL WORD FROM ME IS KEEP NUDES & TRASH IN ART GALLERIES PROTECTED BY LAW!!! RICKP47 It just seems like Quantum has not thought out their policies fully. Especiall RICKP47 y where some of the classifieds are asking for correspondence RICKP47 between users. Could be really big problems. AFP Draco Ethan... AFP Draco It's not the people who don't want to see it - that's easy. AFP Draco It the people who don't want thier CHILDREN to see it, and THAT'S the hard (impossible) part. MikeL63 OK IT'S ILLEGAL...ARE THERE ADULT BBS FOR ADULTS NOT PERVERTS? EthanA Well, like I said EthanA when I was not suppose to EthanA It is the parent's responsibility to take comtrol of there kids! EthanA Not ours or Quantums Stracka I wan to know is is against the law to have nudes on America Online? EthanA Ok.. I am done. That was my commen. :) RICKP47 I just think that Quantum needs to look at all areas of AOL and inforce the RICKP47 family orientation if that is their policy. AFP Draco Rick - I'm in FULL agreement. AFC BoJ On the subject of court for digitizations... AFC BoJ I think it's widely believed that digitizations of magazines are "computer AFC BoJ renditions", and aren't infringing on any copyrights. (whoops... comment AFC BoJ turning to question). Isn't this true? A GibberFC Think of America Online as a newspaper.... A GibberFC In the Classifieds in a newspaper you will find several ads that ask for different sexual things. A GibberFC at least I have found that in Chicago.... But those same newspapers will not Print full page Nudes on A GibberFC the front page.... The concept of the Forums could be seen as the front page of the paper... A GibberFC and the Classified section is an entirly different part that a majority of people don't usually read A GibberFC those parts of the paper... that could be a reason that Quantum doesn't enforce the Classifieds... AFL Scott In my interpretation of the law, yup. Bo. AFC BoJ That's what I thought. AFP Draco Bo - a picture is the same thing (by law) and as article if it's copyrighted (and all magazine AFP Draco pictures are copyrighted). MauriceG1 Is there some way to lock out under age users? If so, Nude libraries are ok, MauriceG1 BUT if you can't lock out the under age users, Nude libs are not ok. We have to MauriceG1 have some sort of safeguards. Is it possible to lock out under age users? AFP Draco Maurice - if there was a way to keyword it by age, I would have done it a LONG time ago! AFP Draco The system doesn't know how old a user is when they log on. AFP Draco (and we have no way of controlling accounts). AFP Draco It's simply our policy not to offer nudes. MauriceG1 But usually children have a different username than their parent, if there was MauriceG1 an access level for each user name, chosen by the person who pays the account, AFL Scott Let me comment on Maurice's question.... Ok.... here's the deal... Way back AFL Scott when I first started as the AFL of this forum, I asked the same questions you AFL Scott ask now. I wasn't satisfied then... I see it as a logistic's problem, now. Stracka Oh well. bye all Skyhunter Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing nudes, but there is the problem of... Skyhunter ...minors having access. MauriceG1 AFL SCOTT could you ellaborate on the problem of access level per username? MikeL63 AREN'T THERE ALTERNATIVES SO DOWNLOADING ISN'T NECESSARY? AFP Draco Mike - yes, private mail. AFL Scott (Maurice, I'll let kent do that after an answer to to Mike). AFL Scott Kent, can you comment on Maurices Followup? AFP Draco Sure... AFP Draco Access to libraries is handled in two ways: by SysOps and by everyone else. AFP Draco I can add 8 sysops to any board, and they can see hidden files, but beyond that... AFP Draco everyone else must be treated the same way on any given library. AFP Draco Keywords are usable by ANY user online so there's no way to screen for minors using parents accounts, AFP Draco or creating their own on Dad's account. MrKen1 I've heard people asking about "limiting access"..my explaination is MrKen1 where do we "draw the line on limiting access...who else will we "cut out"?? SARABEL I'm a fine artist and have spent 15 years drawing from the nude figure... SARABEL would these renderings be acceptable? AFP Draco MrKen - I think you're sorely missing the point... AFP Draco we don't CUT anyone out of anything. We just don't offer some things. MrKen1 ...thanks Scott!! :) Acqua Don't you think it's about time that our morals were put before our whims? AFL Scott SARABEL, please hold that question... EthanA I have two one-word answer questions.. First, who is the rep from Quantum that EthanA that you promised would be here? EthanA In ATB EthanA or somewhere AFP Draco (is he kidding???) AFC DaveS :) AFL Scott AFP DRACO works for Quantum and is the Forum Producer of ALL the forums on AFL Scott America online. He is employed by Quantum. AFL Scott Second question, Ethan? EthanA Oh he is the "representitive" :disappointed: -- just kidding :) EthanA Ok.. EthanA My other question EthanA is what did you say about a free hour credit if we were here at the end of the EthanA hour? AFL Scott If you're here at the end of the hour and we havent' gotten to your question, AFL Scott I'm going to give you a free hour. EthanA oh!! EthanA I thought just being here we got one EthanA ok... Bye all EthanA !!!!!!!!!!!! KEEP NUDE LIBRARIES !!!!!!!!!!!! Skyhunter Thankyou. As I said before, I have no problem with having nudes online. Skyhunter Artistically speaking, as long as it is done with taste, nudes are the Skyhunter finest representation of human kind. Skyhunter But there is the problem of minors, who may not be ready for exposure to more Skyhunter adult interests. Skyhunter Keep in mind that drug stores cannot sell "girly" magazines to minors. Skyhunter As much as I would like to see nudes offered here, it would be tough to Skyhunter police those who may not be old enough... AFP Draco Commetn to Sky... Skyhunter For OA to mail photos, well, that would make OA a distributer, and could Skyhunter raise other concerns... Skyhunter Thankyou. AFP Draco Sky, whethere I agree with the policy or not I have to enforce it, but I personally AFP Draco get tickled by some of my Forum Leaders pushing the limits. Example: Is a scanned picture of AFP Draco Michalangelo's "David" 'illegal'??? It's considered one of the AFP Draco finest pieces of art in the world. AFP Draco As such - it SHOULD be online! Skyhunter I support your position, Draco -- AND understand it. :) AFL Scott Good point Kent! UpAllNight Okay... UpAllNight I don't think that any sort of "code" is necessary to keep the "under aged" UpAllNight out... if one is desperate enough to see nudity, one can see it on cable TV, UpAllNight or obtain a magazine *somewhere*. AFL Scott Another good point. A GibberFC First... One Man's Art is another Man's Pornography Then you run into the problem of who's morality A GibberFC are you going to use to judge submissions.... it is a very sticky can of worms. AFP Draco Jonh - I trust the judgement of the Forum Leaders. AFP Draco (except Scott - I ahve to watch him like a hawk!) AFL Scott Right, Gib... I'd like to add my views to the fray... AFL Scott First, I don't see anything wrong with nude pictures of men or women... if AFL Scott they are tastefully done. Unfortunately, what my taste is and what your taste AFL Scott is may differ greatly. Therein lies the problem. How do we define nudity AFL Scott that is acceptable and nudity that isn't? Currently, the guidelines say.. AFL Scott NO FRONTAL NUDITY. Well, that's a big judgement call here... Do we allow AFL Scott nude rears? Think about it. AFL TimB Was it Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart that said that he couldn't define.. AFL TimB obscenity but he knew it when he saw it. It is VERY much a matter of... AFL TimB personal interpretation by the Forum Leader. Also our own opinions make a .. AFL TimB large effect on the decisions that get made. Its not the extremes that ... AFL TimB cause the problems (I suspect) but the borderline cases. In a similar... AFL TimB situation with the AO Sounds library the Music and Sound forum are VERY... AFL TimB straight arrows, maybe less so in the regular sounds library. Its a matter.. AFL TimB of interpretation. AFL TimB But that is .. AFL TimB good as the forums reflect some individuality, we are not a monolith. AFL Scott GA with your comment, Marty. Then we'll get back to the questions for a bit. AFL Marty Strangely enough, I agree with Tim. This is all a jusgement call... AFL TimB LOL! AFL Marty on the part of the Forum Leader. Even if we were so bold as to suggest... AFL Marty definitions for what we meant by "nudity", I can guarantee that... AFL Marty some AO member would upload something that wasn't covered by the definition. AFL Marty Perhaps if we could understand -why- the policy exists, it might better help AFL Marty us decide what's appropriate and what's not. Otherwise you spend your time... AFL Marty trying to figure out ways to circumvent the "letter of the law". Rob Morgan if quantum is so hip on the family thing, then why are they letting chat... Rob Morgan rooms with sex as the topic, and sounds such as "69" and "tounge"... Rob Morgan and names as Dick, Dickme, and Pokeher... AFL Scott (Marty, I want Kent to address that after Gibs comment) AFP Draco Rob... AFP Draco I'll re-iterate; I only run The Forums. I can't answer for what occurs on the rest of the system. Rob Morgan i can't download a nude pic, but i can sure go to a chat and talk about 69. AFP Draco If you find them offensive (and I can undersdtand why some people would) then you must send your AFP Draco complaint to Customer services. AFL Scott But it's a good point you make Rob. We're going to make sure that people AFL Scott outside the forums read this log. A GibberFC My comment was meant as a to be a "Devil's Advocate" type of commment.... but just the same it seems A GibberFC Quantum is allowing people connection to be seperate from the forums. The forums tend to make it A GibberFC look like that Quantum supports it... so if they allow full nudes in a library then it reflects on the A GibberFC company. Things in People connection tend to be a little more different than in the forums (as I see A GibberFC it) AFP Draco I wish that what occurred online was a uniform enforcement of QCS policy, but I can only assume AFP Draco responsiblity and answer for The Forums. AFP Draco Sorry if that sounds like I'm copping out. Rob Morgan not really a complaint but just not in complience with the rule. AFP Draco I agree Rob Morgan I would'nt let my 10 year old sign on and have access to the chats. AFL Scott Kent, earlier, Marty made a comment about _understanding_ why the rules AFL Scott we have to enforce exists... can you elaborate on this? AFP Draco ok - the policy exists simply because QCS' Board of Directors wanted it that way. AFP Draco It's an arbitrary decision on their part, but if your Directors say AFP Draco "No nudity, we wanta family oriented system" that' AFP Draco s how she goes... AFP Draco This po90licy comes from the top down. AFL Scott The hour is up.. Free time awardees are...Maurice, Rick, and Mike. (SARA left) AFP Draco I would like to close... AFP Draco oops AFL Scott Surak? Surak TFF Sorry, I've forgotten my comment. AFL Scott Ok... next comment is Marty..Then we'll finish up the current questions. MauriceG1 This may be taboo, but how do other services handle this? Compusludge, GEnie... Acqua Society needs values! Nudity belongs at the control of the family unit, not a general consensis. AFL Scott It's not Taboo. They have nude pictures on their systems. They also AFL Scott have a disclaimer. AFP Draco Maurice... AFP Draco I can't answer for CIS, but GEnie leaves it up to the individual contracted IP (Chief SysOp). AFL TimB The mention of taboo is interesting. The only taboo online are items ... AFL TimB involving good taste. And we'll even discuss those (per this chat)... AFL TimB we do NOT censor any comments about other online services or your opinions.. AFL TimB on our service. AFL Marty (I think he meant that discussing CIS or GEnie here might be taboo) BillP Regarding other services... Because of the ease of getting online and using BillP the software... I think you'll all agree we do get a younger audience then BillP what you're likely to find on other services. MauriceG1 Was just a joke folks, about being taboo MauriceG1 yes AFL Scott I agree with that. AFC DaveS How about implementing an "Adult File Transfer Protocol" that would be usable AFC DaveS with some module that would have to be separately orderable through quantum AFC DaveS with a credit card? Most 14 year olds wouldn't have one, and if they AFC DaveS stole their parents card, the item would appear on the bill as "Nude 'N Adult AFC DaveS Computer Package" or something :) AFC DaveS Need a separate activation code....unique or something. AFP Draco Dacve - write the idea up and submit it to me. AFC DaveS Otay, Draco. MauriceG1 How come the local BBS on a C64 can have access levels but AO can't AFP Draco Maurice - this ain't yer local BBS. MauriceG1 ALso, Is the no nudes policy on AO the same on QLINK and PCLINK? AFP Draco As far as I know, it is. BillP yup MauriceG1 QLINK is definitely a YOUNG users service AFL Scott Ok... Maurice... it's not a question of can't have.. it's a question of AFL Scott other issues such as who's gonna control it? How is it going to be maintained AFL Scott who's going to pay for it. Gerhard11 Hi everyone. What are we talking about tonight? AFL Scott I'd like to thank Kent for joining us tonight! It's been a tough road tonight AFL TimB Naked women. MauriceG1 LOL AFC DaveS Nude Graphics on AO :) AFL Marty Naked men too AFP Draco Pice of cake, Scott (where's my sunburn lotion?) AFL Scott but I think you all now know where Quantum stands on the Nude pictures issues AFL Scott Thanks Kent!:) I knew you could do it!:) AFC DaveS (facing the wall. That's a joke, son :) AFL Scott Sunburn lotion is in the Mail, dude!:) AFL Scott ---log off--- This transcript is copyright (c) 1990, NoseWorks, Inc. It may be uploaded, unedited, to any information service/BBS provided it is unedited. America Online and AGR... We've got the answers!