=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- APPLE II GRAPHICS & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG February 10, 1993 10 PM ET Topic: MODS! Forum Leader: Scott Gentry (AFL Scott), Forum Assistant: Gene Koh (AFA Gene) Forum Consultants: Joyce Madden (AFC Joyce), Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt (AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS) Copyright (c) 1993 America Online All Rights Reserved =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- AFL Scott : Tonights topic is MODS...I don't know much about MOD's either, so I'm going to ask a question... AFL Scott : What does MOD stand for? AFC Eddie : Module AFL Scott : What makes up a MODule? Cat3Legged : It's similar to the SoundSmith format, except that the samples (up to 128K long) are included in the file format. AFC Eddie : Four tracks of either 15 or 31 instrument songs. That's about how much I know. Cat3Legged : There are several incarnations of the MOD format that I'm aware of... AFC Eddie : So far, only Amiga's and IBMs can make them. Cat3Legged : the granddaddy of the format appears to have been started with a program called SoundTracker. Or was it NoiseTracker? This is the format from which SoundSmith was apparently based on...all five disks of SS music were converted from that format. ELECTMUSIC : Wasn't the Mod format set up to cross over to different platforms... similiar to GIF files for graphics MonoTone : I think so, Greg... Cat3Legged : I don't think it was...there are only de-facto standards. AFL Scott : So... Wasn't that why ASIF was made? Cat3Legged : There are some variants of the ST/NT MOD format on the Atari ST...they are slightly different in the way they implement some effects, and use a different signature byte. ELECTMUSIC : ASIF was only for digitized sound... Mod's contain that PLUS music performance data Cat3Legged : The current de-facto MOD standard is that promoted by ProTracker. AFC Eddie : What platform does Protracker run on? Cat3Legged : The problem is in the interpretation of the music performance data. It isn't standardized across players, which is why many MODs sound slightly different from player to player. AFL Scott : When you say Performance Data you're referring to things like portamento, volume, etc? If so, doesn't MIDI encompass that? Cat3Legged : ProTracker originated on the Amiga...these MODs have more effects, using the undefined bytes in the effects table. ELECTMUSIC : Pitch and Rhythm (timing) data Cat3Legged : Yup Scott. When NoiseTracker GS first came out, there were a number of MODs that didn't play at all or didn't play "correctly"...most of these were ProTracker. AFL Scott : Ok, but why come up with a "Standard" if MIDI already encompassed everything needed? ELECTMUSIC : The problem with Midi is that it doesn't recognize ASIF digitized data for computers AFC Eddie : Because MIDI required an external device to play the songs! Cat3Legged : NoiseTracker GS is still not ProTracker compatible. ELECTMUSIC : Mod= ASIF + MIDI Cat3Legged : The MOD format was written to take advantage of the way the Amiga sound hardware works, so it was really easy to write a player. AFL Scott : Wait... didn't DiversiTune play Midi stuff through the GS? If so, then the only outboard device was the keyboard or MIDI input device, no? MonoTone : What about the MOD player that Ian made? is it ProTracker compatible? Cat3Legged : Yes, both MODzap and soniqTracker were written to fill in the gap left by NoiseTracker....they handle ProTracker extended effects. ELECTMUSIC : DTune recognized NO standard for digitized sound! Cat3Legged : Creating a MOD is a lot like creating a SoundSmith file...the music format is inherently quantized in nature. Cat3Legged : The ProTracker extensions allow things like note delay and bizarre timing effects to get around that. Some of the early ST/NT MODs used very fast tempos to do difficult timing. AFL Scott : Wait, quantizing sound is different from quantizing graphics... doesn't sound quantizing simply make notes fit into a given time signature? Cat3Legged : Scott: Yes, but you lose a lot. The Music guys here can probably tell you SoundSmith horror stories. MonoTone : I presume, Cat, that you have/had an Amiga? Cat3Legged : No, Joyce....I got curious about MODs when NT came out for the GS and I did some research into it. MonoTone : Thanks, Dave - very knowledgable :) Cat3Legged : Eddie, Gene, Greg...do any of you *like* composing with SoundSmith? ELECTMUSIC : Not I MonoTone : I sure don't ! ELECTMUSIC : NOT I AFA Gene : "Like?" No :) AFC Eddie : <----Does not like composing with SS. Cat3Legged : Why not? AFL Scott : So, how does one create a MOD? AFC Eddie : You can't create one on an Apple II or a mac. AFA Gene : I don't think anybody really prefers the spreadsheet method, although I'm sure there are AFL Scott : Why not? AFC Eddie : <---Old fashioned. Likes to actually PLAY music! AFA Gene : those who will claim that it is easier to write 4/4 repeating sixteenth note passages (as AFC Eddie : Because there's no software that lets you do that. ELECTMUSIC : Musicians don't like the spreadsheet "Step" method of composing MonoTone : Agree with Eddie Cat3Legged : Yes, there are no MOD editing programs for the GS at this time. AFA Gene : appears often with the techno music that is popular in the format) since the AFL Scott : Why don't the Geniuses who write the MOD players also write MOD composers? Cat3Legged : They do, but none of them own GSs. AFA Gene : spreadsheet lets the user get down to whatever quantization level they please by varying the Cat3Legged : I've never seen a MOD that came from a GS. AFA Gene : speed of scrolling through cells. MonoTone : What Gene is saying is very true! AFL Scott : I'm talking people like Ian, Tim, etc. ELECTMUSIC : Isn't it possible to use SndSmith and then convert that to a Mod with another program. Cat3Legged : Meekins was toying with the idea of writing a full-service MOD player. AFC Eddie : Nope, Greg. You can convert to Noisetracker format, tho. Cat3Legged : Ian is always talking about MegaTracker, but few have seen it. AFC Eddie : Megatracker does not allow creation of MODS. MonoTone : I didn't think so either, Eddie ELECTMUSIC : what programs on the PC or other platforms allow for Mod creation? Cat3Legged : There's one on the PC called MODedit. There are several for the Amiga, but I am not familiar with any of them. ProTracker, SoundTracker, and NoiseTracker are all programs for the Amiga. ELECTMUSIC : And you can compose with ModEdit? Cat3Legged : Yes, using the spreadsheet model. I haven't seen a recent version, so it may have changed. AFL Scott : So why does that one program have a keyboard tool and no way to record? AFC Eddie : How does the digitized part get added? Cat3Legged : I guess you cull your samples from other sources. AFL Scott : I mean there seems to be glaring holes in the way sound on the GS is handled. ELECTMUSIC : Thats for sure, Scott, mainly because Apple never had the format set when the GS was first released Cat3Legged : Which one program, Scott? AFL Scott : I think it's Ian's. AFC Eddie : You mean MODZap? AFL Scott : Maybe... the one with the keyboard. Cat3Legged : Oh...I think it was "to be cool". AFL Scott : Oh. Cat3Legged : Ian was continually trying to outdo Tim. AFA Gene : SoundSmith has had a keyboard option that let users test out pitches of instruments. Team AGS : LOL :) AFC Eddie : Noisetracker has a keyboard for trying out instrument sounds, but not recording. AFL Scott : Another good reason might be because Apple never released a decent toolset for sound on the GS AFL Scott : until MIDISynth... by then, it was a done deal. I mean, for the longest time the only programs to do music were toys like Music Construction Set and that other EA music program. Cat3Legged : Instant Music? MonoTone : MusicStudio? AFL Scott : Then came the idiodic Music Studio that didn't work...EA said it was coming out with Deluxe Music for the GS but never did... AFC Eddie : Music Studio worked for me, but too limited. MonoTone : Music Studio is probably one of the best overall programs (music)for the GS. Great teaching tool too. ELECTMUSIC : Basically... those early developers had to develop their own tools and standards. Apple was of no help! AFL Scott : Not in my mind, Joyce and I'll tell you why... Cat3Legged : I perceive something of a gap between the game/demo writers and the musicians in terms of desires. AFL Scott : It never followed the desktop metaphor and the first releases were horribly buggy. AFC Eddie : Good point, Cat! Cat3Legged : That's the programmers perspective, though... AFA Gene : VERY good point, Cat :) ELECTMUSIC : Scott.... when MStudio was released their was NO desktop metaphor :) MonoTone : I have never had a problem with MusicStudio....I still use it today. True, Dave AFL Scott : Bet me, Greg. I bought it when it first came out and all the desktop tools were in place. AFA Gene : By version 2.0 Music Studio became quite a stable platform, albeit limited, ELECTMUSIC : Not when it was being DEVELOPED! Cat3Legged : Music Studio came out way back when ProDOS 16 1.1 was king. There wasn't even a real finder then. MonoTone : I even have a beta version, and had no problem with it then either AFL Scott : But, that's not the point... I sat here for many weeks trying to enter songs from sheet music only to find out that it can't be done properly. MonoTone : I do it all the time, Scott...no problems. AFL Scott : Go back and read what you said earlier, Greg. You said there was no desktop metaphor when it was released... there was. Maybe not when it was being developed, but there were tools in ROM that couldhave been used. Cat3Legged : I think Greg might have meant that the metaphor was still open to interpretation. ELECTMUSIC : I stand corrected Scott...Audio, Light and Sound had one HELL of a time developing MStudio because the standards were in a constant state of CHANGE. Cat3Legged : Does anyone here believe that MIDIsynth should be a standard for GS music? AFC Eddie : Greg, I remember your first review of MS on GEnie. ELECTMUSIC : I think we all no that APPLE wanted to get the GS out the door before it was really ready to be released. And that was one of the reason early developers left the GS platform AFL Scott : I do. AFA Gene : No, Dave, for the reason you mentioned before... many programmers would reject it because it takes too much processing overhead. KimBrennan : MIDIsynth has some nice features, but hasn't been fully exploited enough. AFL Scott : I like the sound. It sounds tons better than the MOD stuff and the SoundSmith stuff. Cat3Legged : Forget processing overhead for a moment...does MIDIsynth meet the quality standards of composers for the GS? KimBrennan : For some reason though, MIDIsynth sounds tinny compared to a lot of MODs. AFL Scott : I think so. Burger Bill uses it. :) AFC Eddie : I agree, Scott. KimBrennan : but, MIDIsynth has a LOT of potentional. AFC Eddie : <--Prejudiced SynthLAB fan. ELECTMUSIC : again using Audio, Light and Sound ...Deluxe Music Studio never went anywhere because of all of the earlier hastles Apple created in their Support AFA Gene : Well, from a musician's perspective MIDI Synth is fine, in fact better than anything we've been offered in the past, and although it takes a file conversion, MasterTracks Pro makes a great MIDI Synth sequencer. AFL Scott : Deluxe Music was supposed to be done by EA... I've got fliers here. MonoTone : Greg, for the GS it NEVER made it! AFL Scott : It was supposed to be a port of Deluxe Music on the Amiga. Cat3Legged : If there was a decent MIDIsynth instrument wavebank utility, we might see more music for it. AFC Eddie : Agree again, Cat! Cat3Legged : Personally, I was curious whether or not the 7-note polyphony of MIDIsynth is a serious drawback...in comparison to something like SoundSmith, it seems pretty limiting ELECTMUSIC : Gene.... the MidiSynth Tool should have been developed 5 years ago, especially since half of the development had been done through Ensoniq AFC Eddie : Is the polyphony limit in SynthLAB, or MIDI Synth? AFA Gene : There's a tradeoff there, Dave, in that MIDI Synth allows for such ease of sound editing that it makes up for the limitation in polyphony. It's MIDI Synth's limitation, Ed. AFL Scott : That's true. Cat3Legged : I've downloaded a blues piano jam type of thing from here in SynthLab, and the piano stuff would compete with the drumkit, and notes would be lost... MonoTone : It should have been on our 1st System software! AFC Eddie : I know, Cat! AFA Gene : You've got to be really careful how you make use of the synthesizer with MIDISynth, just as with any synthesizer with limited polyphony. ELECTMUSIC : Isn't it interesting how Apple finally developed the most important music tool for the GS... and there isn't a developer who took the challange to create a music program for it. Cat3Legged : Good point, Gene. AFC Eddie : They see no market, Greg! AFL Scott : Why would they... there's no market. Cat3Legged : No one wants to...the dominant specie of programmer left on the GS is the one who wants to do it all. FredW GS : My biggest complaint is the lack of a full featured MIDI sequencer for the GS. MonoTone : And today, there is no market :( AFL Scott : Right now, I'm having a hell of a time convincing my wife to let me have the time to work on Allison. You see, it's hard when you're only going to make around $5000 on a project. It's not really worth the time from a business aspect. ELECTMUSIC : Imagine if the tool was in place at the beginning of the GS's release Cat3Legged : That would have been something, Greg... FredW GS : I'd never be happy with 8 bit /32 KHz sound anyhow. Cat3Legged : There are three drawbacks to using MIDIsynth that I've heard. ELECTMUSIC : Fred... remember 5 years ago 8 bit sound was very common MonoTone : Understand, Scott Cat3Legged : 1) MIDIsynth instrument format. It's complex... there aren't any new wavebanks. No one wants their game to use the same wavebank their competitors used. Score one for SoundSmith. 2) MIDIsynth sound synthesis model. It's great for creating complex, more natural sounding waveforms, but it's an inflexible oscillator hog. So for those weird and wild stereo and sound effects, MIDIsynth sort of cramps your style... It would have been nice if MIDIsynth could allocate a different number of oscillators for different kinds of instruments...everything doesn't need 4 oscillators. 3) The overhead problem that Gene mentioned. I think someone said it was around 20 - 30% AFL Scott : How did DiversiTune do it, then?... he got around almost all limitations. MonoTone : But it's the best we have TODAY, Dave. Cat3Legged : Agreed, Joyce, but right now I'm just projecting the perception among game-type programmers I've been hanging out with. Scott: he dynamically allocated his oscillators. MonoTone : Now we have Bass Boosters on CD/tape/Radio players! ELECTMUSIC : I believe the very first Ensoniq keyboards were 8 bit (I might be wrong) FredW GS : No you are correct but only the very first...They went 12 bit very quickly. Cat3Legged : I think the current inability to create your own patches for MIDIsynth is the biggest drawback, from a sound generation point of view. FredW GS : I always hoped Bill Basham would release the format of his DTune instruments so that we could make our own. ELECTMUSIC : Thanks Fred... so the chip inside the GS is from that vintage MonoTone : Could a program be written to do that, Dave? Cat3Legged : I'm sure it could. I couldn't do it, though... ELECTMUSIC : Well Cat... you can create your own patches with synthLAB FredW GS : Maybe if I talked to him again, he'd release it. ELECTMUSIC : you can't create your own Wavebanks AFC Eddie : Can't you create your own wavebanks with SoundConvert? Cat3Legged : Whoops, thanks for pointing out the error, Greg. I meant wavebanks. Does anyone have a specification on the MIDIsynth wavebank format? ELECTMUSIC : Modify/Combine all ya want in synthLAB... but as Cat mentioned all instrument files begin to sound the same MonoTone : I am sure your user group has them, Dave. Cat3Legged : I'm missing the usergroup meeting right now :( ELECTMUSIC : SConvert can create the Wavebank files.... its very DIFFICULT to assemble the file, though MonoTone : Ask your librarian then...I will ask mine (if I can remember) Cat3Legged : I'll also look around on the net. I'd imagine it would be pretty hairy, with the multiple samples per instrument, and probably dozens of parameters associated with each one. AFA Gene : It isn't too hard to create instrument wavebanks in which each instrument is based upon one attack sample and one sustain sample.