=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG February 12, 1992 10 PM ET Topic: Digital Youth Alliance Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM), Forum Assistant: Gene Koh (AFA Gene) Forum Consultants: Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt (AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS) Copyright (c) 1992 America Online All Rights Reserved =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- AFL JoyceM Okay....now that we are all assembled in a comfortable seat - I would like to welcome DYA - Digital Youth Alliance to our informal chat this evening. We have from DYA, Matt and Derek. As most of you know - DYA has been quite inventive with great GS software, especially in the music field. If you have not checked out our (AMS) library or DYA's you should. The instrument disks, files for SoundSmith are outstanding. Now, let's welcome Matt and Derek - and am sure they have some information to pass on to use about upcoming software from DYA. Matt and Derek DYA Matt hiya.:) AFC Eddie ()()()()()() DYA Derek hi everyone. Sorry Jim's not here tonight :) AFL JoyceM Matt and/or Derek - what new products is DYA up to these days? Anything in the music field? DYA Derek Yes. We have some interesting programs in the music field as well as many other things. I'm hoping to do another volume of instruments, maybe with some especially for NoiseTracker (ie high-quality, large samples)... AFC Eddie Great idea! DYA Matt Jim is working on a background soundsmith player, like Parik's BackgroundSound... it will include batch-mode playing from different folders, etc, etc... AFL JoyceM I like the idea of the background SS player.... KimBrennan Cool. DYA Matt Not to clone Parik's player, which is great... it will steer more towards the batch-mode playing, and include advanced features like detection of the use of Soundtools, at which it will disable, etc... I think that was what Jim said, Derek!:) AFL JoyceM How about a utility that would take, say a synthLAB, song and convert it to a MOD file? DYA Derek It will have many playing modes and will play many types of songs. KimBrennan Oooh. A Soundsmith Tapedeck for the GS. SOunds nice.... DYA Derek The program will have a basically text interface with text tools written by me. We're also hoping for NoiseTracker support. AFL Marty It'd be neat to have SoundFactory GS... convert any format to any other format. AFL JoyceM What release date are you all looking at? DYA Matt there is also a super hi-res graphics player with a rack-stereo interface. AFL JoyceM You are so right, Marty....on my wish list :) DYA Derek I think if we gave a release date we'd have a hard time sticking to it...It's not just vapor ware though - we have a working version now. DYA Matt it's Jim's project now, I've done the graphics and icons for it... AFL JoyceM Would 1992 as a release date about right? :) DYA Matt I think Derek's just about wrapped up the text interface. Or made available as a programmer's utility.:) DYA Derek sounds good to me :) Hopefully the text tools will be used in other programs as well. KimBrennan Yeah, programming schedules are hard to dictate, what with school and things. AFL Marty These are your own tools and not Apple's? DYA Matt I think we'd all like to steer away from demos and the like, and focus more on applications. AFL JoyceM Will these be shareware products? DYA Derek Correct - all three of us are in high school and it's tough to work on things. AFL JoyceM Agree with that idea, Matt. AFC Eddie Matt, I agree! Pizpot high school...if you guys are writing programs like this now...go straight to college and learn get a degree in computer science DYA Derek Exhibit A was fun but we're working on applications now. DYA Matt I hope not either. Hopefully we can wrap these projects up soon. AFL JoyceM Matt/Derek do you see a greater potential for new software now that System 6 will have Tool 035 and synthLAB/MIDI synth? DYA Matt I hope so..MidiSynth is incredible, I'd love to see a full-fledged sequencer/synthesizer. DYA Derek We hope so. Once we get some practice programming the new system software etc. we hope to have some new stuff designed for it. DYA Matt Jim plays keyboards, perhaps he'd be interested in something along those lines. DYA Matt :) AFC Eddie Great! DYA Matt T2 is being developed for system 6.... ELECTMUSIC Ditto ... "Great" DYA Derek That is basically Jim's biggest project now - Twilight II. I'm working on many of the blankers. We're doing the best we can to get it out. DYA Matt Half of me is glad Jim waited to incorporate sys6's features, and half of me wanted to see him get it out asap.:) DYA Derek T2 does have many system 6.0 specific features in it. DYA Matt I think we're basically waiting until system 6 is officially released. AFL Marty Such as? DYA Matt Animated cursors..Support for loading modules from the finder, loading t2 from disks other than the bootup disk. Better compatibility with programs... AFA Andy Good question Marty :) DYA Matt (a useful feature!:) AFL JoyceM Does T2 incorporate any sounds? Will it? Should it? DYA Matt Yep - some of the modules do have sound... AFL Marty There was a problem with the earlier Twilight in that it didn't run at all on some GS systems. DYA Matt each is configurable with it's own specific options (like the after dark stuff) DYA Derek T2 now checks the environment better before it blanks so it (hopefully) won't blank at the wrong times... AFL Marty Mine was one of them. DYA Matt it even supports text-mode mousetext blanking for stuff like america online. Pizpot Will T2 check to see if the GS is printing? I know that with my IW, it used to crash if you didn't put the cursor at the bottom of the screen DYA Matt I know you had a rough time with twilight marty:) AFL Marty Is that problem solved with the new version? DYA Derek It will watch the cursor and not blank if the watch cursor is on, hopefully keeping it from blanking when the GS is busy working. It also watches the joystick. AFA Andy Putting the cursor at the bottom of the screen did me no good. DYA Matt I think Jim cleaned up/reprogrammed a lot of the code Marty for compatibility reasons. AFL Marty Well, I was never sure exactly what the problem was... if it was a problem with Twilight or with system tools or both. DYA Matt it has corners where you put the cursor if you want it to blank immediately or to not blank at all. Pizpot DYA <-- you guys should consider getting T2 published...if it's as good as you say it is. Or FORCE EVERYONE TO SEND IN THEIR SHAREWARE FEES! DYA Matt no way to force people.:) AFL JoyceM By putting one of those irritating screens in the program! DYA Derek we're definitely considering all options Pizpot. We've been approached by people as well. We're not sure about how it will finally be distributed. AFL JoyceM What commercial programs do you all have? Pizpot You should at least consider password protecting it. DYA Derek Do you mean what do we have out now or what do we hope to have? :) AFL JoyceM Both ? DYA Derek Right now all DYA products are shareware of freeware. As we said, we're concentrating on applications now rather than demos and some of these will most likely be commercial AFL JoyceM I am presuming that the shareware fees aren't coming in as they should? DYA Matt We haven't asked for any, as of yet.. DYA Derek Twilight did very well. AFC Eddie I have a question for you DYA guys. DYA Derek go ahead AFC Eddie This concerns your Excellent SoundSmith Instrument Disk No. 1. DYA Matt Shoot.:) AFL Marty That's understandable in part, since it's rather well known that T2 is in development. AFC Eddie We need a tutorial on how to digitize instruments in tune with SoundSmith. DYA Matt Ah.:) Don't tell anyone, but I got extremely lucky.. AFC Eddie <---Doesn't believe that. DYA Matt I'll tell you how we did some of the instruments if ya want. AFC Eddie Sure! DYA Matt ok - well, Jim got a really cool professional synthesizer (forget which brand/model) and told me there were some great sounds on it. AFA Gene (Roland D70) DYA Matt He did a line out from the synth to his stereo and recorded a ton of samples on tape at various notes, and sent the tape to me. I told him to be sure to include G's because I had found the sampling rate in Audio Animator that matched the soundsmith G. Well, I had everything sampled, and gave a prerelease disk to King Lerch, and he informed me that everything was... out of tune. AFC Eddie Uh oh. DYA Matt I had sampled everything at about A4, not G4. DYA Matt Sooooooooooo I had to find the G rate, and after some trial and error I found rate that matched fairly accurately. (for AA users it's 13417, a number I will never forget). End of story.:) Incidentally, it's a pretty darn good rate to record a lot of stuff, except wind instruments AFC Eddie So, sample G4 at 13417, eh? DYA Matt Yep! AFC Eddie Great! Thanks, Matt! AFL JoyceM Matt, would it be okay if Eddie wrote up what you said and post it in our library? AFA Gene What tape decks did you guys use to record/playback? They had to have been really accurate, or 13417 won't work for eddie :) DYA Matt If I get some time I'll get several frequencies for soundsmith notes and write it up. AFC Eddie That'd be nice, Matt. We'd really appreciate it. AFL JoyceM Thanks, Matt we and our users would appreciate it. AFC Eddie :) DYA Matt Tape deck? Jim just used a line out from the synth to the tape deck on his stereo. I recorded off of my stereo to the computer (I have 2 rca type REC OUT jacks on my stereo, an 80s Magnavox). there was a bit of noise tho, I couldn't sample stuff very loud,so the samples had to be amplified after sampling. AFC Eddie But they sure came out nice! Pizpot How does the AA digitizer compare to the MDIdeas digitizer? Which I have. DYA Matt I just got a cd player, which is amazing because you can record with an extremely high input level and there's virtually no extra noise. AFA Gene interesting... sounds a lot more efficient than when I sampled a bunch of insts all at 37000 and adjusted the keyboard pitch (came up with some very long sound files :) DYA Matt :) DYA Matt I like the AA because of the external mixer, which allows you to adjust the input, output, and mic levels. AFC Eddie I use a Yamaha 8-channel mixer for mine. DYA Matt And I used (and still use) a great DAK microphone Marty so generously provided me with a couple of years ago. (thanks again Marty:) Pizpot My main problem is that I ALWAYS get noisy samples when I use the MDIdeas digitizer to digitize sounds...and I use a CD player straight into it. AFL JoyceM The recording tape that you used, what kind, name, type, etc? DYA Matt mmm.... I think Jim put the samples on a regular TDK 60 min. normal bias tape. Pizpot JoyceM <- TDK CR02 is best sound for your dollar. IMHO DYA Matt can you adjust input level with MDIdeas card? AFL JoyceM Great, then nothing fancy. Thanks Pizpot, I used that to tape from CD to tape. Pizpot Yes you can... AFA Andy I still use TDK SA :) AFL JoyceM Yes, Matt DYA Matt you hafta set it kinda low. AFA Gene Pizpot, have you tried digitizing using other cards/other systems? Pizpot I use AudioZap to adjust the Line Level input DYA Matt anything above 60% gets noisy w/ tape for me w/ the AA. Pizpot Gene< No DYA Matt How bout a question for you guys - anyone know where I can get a 4 track tape recorder/mixer? Pizpot Matt <-- but then the amplitude on the samples is real low... AFA Gene Pizpot, how bad is it? Any analogy you can think of to explain? DYA Matt hmm. I dunno then Pizpot.:| I've never used an MDIdeas card. Pizpot DYA Matt <-- try some stereo repair places for a used 4 track. They usually have stuff like that lying around AFL JoyceM I sure don't Matt - how about a sound/stereo store? AFA Gene How much do you want to spend Matt? Pizpot AFA Gene...how bad is it...hmm. dunno. just noisy...like tape hiss on a 5th generation copy...? DYA Matt Maybe a couple of hundred. Used is ok - I saw a Tascam portable in a magazine today for 269. AFC Eddie That price sounds about right, Matt. Tascams are good. DYA Matt I'm sick of recording on my stereo (which also has stereo mic inputs, which is nice). AFC Eddie Also, consider Fostex. DYA Matt I play drums in a band and I'd like to record some stuff, not to demo or anything, just for some better quality. AFA Gene The recording quality on some of the Tascams is awesome. You use the right type II tape and it sounds perfect. ELECTMUSIC I like the Yamaha recorders DYA Matt The Fostex was priced at about 700 bucks tho. AFC Eddie There are cheaper Fostex recorders, Matt. $300 or so. AFA Gene Matt, I think the first thing to think about for recording drums is mics, not the 4-track. AFC Eddie Gene is right! ELECTMUSIC I have the X15 Fostex... and its pretty cheesy DYA Matt I know you need a lot of mics for drums. AFA Gene The mics are 1 million times more important... i speak from experience :) DYA Matt But I wouldn't use mics unless I could record... AFC Eddie What I think Gene is saying is that good mics and a mediocre deck are better than good deck and mediocre mics. ELECTMUSIC What Mikes did you use on the drums, Gene? DYA Matt is this digression into garage-band type stuff ok for the chat? I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way here. AFA Gene None! Just three regular mics miked in the air. Pretty sad! AFC Eddie No problem! DYA Derek we can always talk about software later on :) DYA Matt We only have 2 mics.:) for everything:) AFL JoyceM Not a problem Matt, we are here to help anyone and everyone :) AFA Gene Is the AA the only mixing device you have? DYA Matt me? yeah, I wouldn't even consider using it for band stuff. ELECTMUSIC Ohhh... Did ya masking tape the drums heads and cymbals? DYA Matt I looked at mixers today. everything's so darn expensive. AFA Gene No Greg, what does that do? To damp the sound you mean? DYA Matt the tascam 4 trk has a mixer with it right? it's right on the unit I mean? ELECTMUSIC Yea.... gives a nice tight feel to the recording of the drums AFA Gene What did you say the purpose of these recordings is again? AFC Eddie We should get together the AOL All-Star Band!! DYA Matt Not much really, now that I think about it. I wasn't seriously shopping or anything, I just thought it'd be neat if I could pick up a cheap 4 trk. AFA Gene Hmm... will try that next time. Does it change the live sound drastically? ELECTMUSIC Mikes exaggerate ... especially when closely placed AFA Gene Matt.... what I'd suggest is this.... look around the house to see if you have any old box tape-cassette player with 1 or preferably 2built-in condenser mics and record your band in a room with all the amps and drums within a reasonable distance (10 ft diameter circle or something) and place the box closer to the bass amp (slightly)... you get really nice sound, perhaps 75% of what you'd get from a $ 250-300 4-track setup. DYA Matt well, we've done basically the same thing... we have 2 mics, both omnidirectional, that are set up about a foot off of the floor. They're plugged into my stereo, which allows for separate left/right mic input (no adjustable input level)... AFA Gene regular mics in a tape deck have never worked as well as the condensor mics for me. DYA Matt it comes out ok, but kinda muddy. AFC Eddie Yeah, but what do you do to mic the vocals? DYA Matt everything's being picked up by the 2 (which is extremely poor, I know). The vocals are coming out of the guitar amp, if that gives you an idea of how cheesy the setup is. We need about 3 more amps. AFC Eddie That must make the vocals sound a mile away. You need a nice PA system! DYA Matt We're renting a pa this weekend, with a monitor, mixer, and huge speakers for 50 bucks! I can't wait! AFL JoyceM BTW...Triad Ventures will be our guest on the 26th of February AFC Eddie When you have the rented PA, use the outputs to record from!! AFA Gene I was thinking the same thing :) AFC Eddie THen I must be right! DYA Matt the line outs from the pa? to what? AFC Eddie To tape. AFA Andy Hopefully discussing how to add sounds to System 6, Joyce? :) AFA Gene Line outs from the mixer to your tape deck, just to keep for posterity DYA Matt cool! so I could put it thru the mixer, then I'd plug that into the aux on the stereo? AFC Eddie Right!! AFL JoyceM Right, Andy. I think we will see some new and exciting programs for System 6.... AFA Gene yep, matt... won't be anything spectacular, but definitely more "balanced" than 2 mics :) AFL JoyceM Matt, Derek - is there anything that we (AMS) can do to help DYA? DYA Matt That would be great. Um... send us money? I dunno.:) DYA Derek That's what I was thinking :) AFA Gene Maybe you can sample yourself yawning, and have T2 play the yawn sample periodically while the screen is blanked :) AFC Eddie Nice idea, Matt. Custom sounds that go along with the graphics. AFL JoyceM Like it, Gene...like it! DYA Matt perhaps a contest could be based around, say, 5 soundless modules that need sounds to go with them, and have people up 'em. DYA Derek I'm always up for new module ideas! AFL JoyceM Something on the idea of Fantasia :) DYA Matt gene, what type of tape would you recommend for recording with the pa on the weekend? AFL JoyceM Matt and Derek - we really appreciate you all coming by this evening and look forward to your next visit. BTW, don't be shy, come to some of our chats....we do have some excellent help here. Great staff. AFA Gene Matt, unless your tape deck is really good (dolby hx pro etc) stick with your favorite type ii tape. Maxell or TDK are my favs. DYA Derek Any time! I enjoy it! AFC Eddie I like Maxell XL IIS AFA Gene Stay away from Memorex tho!!! AFC Eddie Thanks, guys! AFL JoyceM ------------log off-----------