Apple II Music & Sound Conference
July 18, 1990 10:00 pm EDT
Subject:  Keyboards and synthesizers
Forum Leader:  AFL JoyceM (Joyce Madden)

AFL JoyceM Well, now that the big gun is here, I guess we
           can get started.  I am not using Macros (still
           learning), so here goes, ready or not:   First of
           all, if you all don't know by now, the former AFL
           of AMS, TimB, has been promoted to AFP...he is
           now our producer of AO.

AFL JoyceM Welcome to Apple II Music & Sound Forum.
           Tonight's discussion is on
           synthesizers/keyboards.  What is new, what should
           one look for, the price ranges, etc.  ELECTMUSIC
           (Greg Dib) has written a great article that is in
           our library (Articles) on tips on buying a
           keyboard.  And, as you know, Lindsay Hough has
           written a great program called SysExGS for most
           MIDI supported keyboards.  Both of these two are
           very knowledgable on keyboards and their
           expertise should help you.  Remember next week
           (July 25th) the discussion in AMS will be on
           SysExGS.  I would also like to remind you all of
           our monthly contest where we give away FIVE (5)
           hours of connect time to the user who uploads the
           file that we consider to be the most worthwhile
           addition to our vast library.  Also in our
           library, under Let's Discuss/ IIGS/DiversiTune,
           are some comments regarding the recent upgrade to
           DT and a questionnaire that Bill Basham is
           requesting answers to.  Please be sure to comment
           in this folder - this is our way of helping Bill
           get the program developed the way we, the user,
           would like to see it.  Now on to the questions on
           keyboards/sunthesizers.  Oh, yes, I vow that in
           August I will start using macros for my intro.

CN Rep 2   Joyce, is it OK if I ask a question that is not
           on the topic?

AFL JoyceM Sure, CN...go ahead, then we will need to get
           onto the subject.

CN Rep 2   OK, does anybody know if Apple has *OFFICALLY*
           released SynthLab? I've heard from a developer
           that it has been released, but I don't want to
           start a whole room of chaos.

A2GS       They should (will) show it at the Kansas dev
           conf.

A2GS       May even release it there.

Nuzz       I have just received a "New" beta version
           yesterday.

CN Rep 2   Hope so, it's a very remarkable program.  We
           should here some wonderful music soon.

AFP TimB   CN Rep: They are currently beta seeding it to
           developers.  It's supposed to be available thru
           APDA but there have been problems with that and
           we might see new distribution systems in place.

A2GS       The version I've got still has several bugs.

AFL JoyceM Okay, on to the subject at hand.  Any questions
           on keyboards/synthesizers?  No protocol tonight,
           just jump right in, but let each person finish
           their question or answer.

Avery R C  What's the cheapest one? <grin>

Apl Artist the other day my friend brought over his Casio
           CZ-101, I recall MCS manual saying that you could
           use MIDI in (or was that out?) through modem
           port, but what type of cable adapter do we need?

AFP TimB   Apl, OUT only.

A2GS       Apl your going through a MIDI interface right?

Apl Artist oh.. I need the interface? don't remember reading
           about that in the manual.

A2GS       I believe you do, but I wouldn't bet my life on
           it.

ELECTMUSIC Avery, How cheap da ya want to go....

Avery R C  I dunno, I haven't looked much yet.  I'm still
           not sure which MIDI interface is the best one to
           get.

ELECTMUSIC I think there are some basic features that should
           be a must in any electronic instrument. These
           raise the price somewhat from the cheapest
           keyboards.  For example, MIDI is going to put you
           in the $200 + range (discounts could be cheaper).

Avery R C  OK

LindsayGS  Greg - Hasn't Casio introduced an under $500
           pressure-sens elec piano that's MIDI capable?

Avery R C  Is Apple's own MIDI interface the best one? Or is
           Audio Animator or some other?

AFL JoyceM I would suggest using Apple's MIDI interface, you
           can't go wrong for compatibility.

ELECTMUSIC Not Sure, Lindsay. But I wouldn't buy just an
           electronic piano, when a synth could be purchased
           for the same price.

LindsayGS  Yeah, but if you already have a voice module,
           then that's a cheap vel-sens instrument.

A2GS       But Apples interface is supposed to be pretty
           lousy with only 2 ins (I believe)

LindsayGS  Apples is 1 in & 1 out.

BLUE RAIN  Apple's MIDI is very good, I had no problem with
           my synths and mastertrks.JR.

MDW Flyer  Buy the Studio Plus for the best in multiple
           ins/outs.

ELECTMUSIC The K1 by Kawai could be had for about the same
           price and access to many more sounds.

Bill234    Question:  Have just bought new synth....do not
           have MIDI interface yet.  Is the Passport ext.
           interface compatible with Apple's?

A2GS       That's what I mean, But YES, Apples interface
           DOES work very well or at least it should.

Avery R C  Does one really need more than 1 in and 1 out for
           amateur stuff?

AFL JoyceM I does work well, A2GS.

AFL Marty  I believe Apple's MIDI interface is intended as
           an entry level product, which is why it has 1 in
           and 1 out.

LindsayGS  Passport's ext intfc = apples ext intf

MDW Flyer  Buy Opcodes Studio Plus Two.   Apple IIgs or MAC
           compatible.  Best interface around.

Bill234    What is approx price on Opcode, Flyer?

MDW Flyer  $ 150 to 175.

ELECTMUSIC The other interfaces being mentioned here are
           usually more expensive then Apple.

Avery R C  Now, what exactly is the through?  What is MIDI
           through?  How does it relate to in and out?

ELECTMUSIC I can by a MIDI through box for $35... which will
           give me 2 in's and 8 outs and just hook that up
           to my Apple's interface.

Bill234    Can get Passport ext for $75 from a Mac
           mail-order place.

BLUE RAIN  The IN port is copied to the THRU exactly as it
           comes in - no changes

LindsayGS  Through just echoes the in - it passes the MIDI
           stream "through" use thru for multiple MIDI
           instruments.

MDW Flyer  The advantage of the Opcode Studio Plus Two is 3
           ins, 3 outs and switchable front panel controls.

ELECTMUSIC MDW, does Opcode's unit need a separate power
           connection?

MDW Flyer  No more OA-Control-ESC to visit the control
           panel.  No swapping cables.

Bill234    Ok, thanks, flyer...and you say opcode is
           compatible with IIGS?

MDW Flyer  No extra power.  It's got its own power cable.

Avery R C  So is through just for driving a speaker or other
           instruments simultaneously?

BLUE RAIN  Does anybody know anything about the ESQ-1 and
           its sequencer ?

MDW Flyer  I use it for my IIgs.

A2GS       Have you tried it in the raw form that it now?

LindsayGS  RC - its needed for multiple MIDI instruments
           hooked together (sometimes - depends on the
           configuration used).

ELECTMUSIC But, it does need to be plugged into a wall
           outlet.

Avery R C  Ya mean kinda like ADB?

LindsayGS  ADB ?

ELECTMUSIC Blue, do you own the ESQ-1?

Avery R C  ADB, the mouse-keyboard-tablet-pen-etc. chain.

LindsayGS  It can be configured like a daisy chain - so
           yeah!

ELECTMUSIC Is the Esq-1 still in production?

A2GS       Anyone going to the Kansas Conf.???

AFL Marty  I am, A2.

BLUE RAIN  I have a Roland S-50 sampler and a Yamaha
           YS-200.

MDW Flyer  Any IIe users here?  Anyone need Master Tracks
           for a IIe...?  Interested in Master Tracks for
           the IIe.  Cheap.

AFL Marty  How cheap?

MDW Flyer  You name it.  I've no use for it anymore.  Use
           MTJr. now.

AFL Marty  I can't commit to anything until September. If I
           buy it, it would be for  the school's computer
           lab.

AFL JoyceM Greg, if someone wanted to buy a keyboard today,
           what should they look for?

ELECTMUSIC Here's a few guidelines: Most Important it MUST
           BE 'MIDI'.  It also MUST BE Multi-Timbral (can
           play several Instruments at the same time).  A
           synthesizer should allow the user to design
           sounds and a sampler should allow the user to
           digitize a sound plus allow the user then use
           sound design tools to fine tune the sound.  A
           built in sequencer is a must in the higher price
           instruments.  With a higher price comes larger
           memory for the storage of more sounds plus disk
           drives for the permanent storage of these sounds.
           Finally, all keyboards starting around $500
           should support SysEx.

Avery R C  What is done with OUT. Is the out used to drives
           peakers, or to feed stuff back into the synth?

LindsayGS  RC - none of it can drive speakers - all the data
           are just MIDI data - not real sounds - the out
           and in just let instruments read, modify and then
           - send the MIDI data.  The "thru" sends out what
           came in, in case the MIDI instrument modified the
           in.   Think of the MIDI data stream as a command
           language for playing instruments..

BLUE RAIN  The OUT is used to drive other MIDI instuments.
           MIDI data = Digital 1's & 0's to que the
           instrument or sequencer.  The THRU is also used
           to daisy chain instruments.

Avery R C  Kinda like Postscript?

LindsayGS  Yeah, sort of like postscript printing.

MDW Flyer  Best bet is to pick up a book called MIDI for
           Musicians.  by- Craig Anderton.

AFL JoyceM Next week we will have a whole night's discussion
           on Lindsay's SysExGS program.

Avery R C  I'm not gonna be real high-level I think. I'm
           mainly just looking for a way to enter data with
           a keyboard.  Seems like I can just do it
           voice-by-voice, with the single in.

ELECTMUSIC Keep in mind there is a limit to how many
           instruments you can Daisy Chain

LindsayGS  Greg - what features of those you mentioned
           can you get for $500 now?

ELECTMUSIC Ok, I did leave out a feature - Pressure
           sensitvity (which could be had for $500)

MDW Flyer  Used Kawai K-5's can be had for around $500-600.

LindsayGS  What does a new K1 sell for?

MDW Flyer  $1200.

ELECTMUSIC K1 can be had for about $550 and they contain
           most of what I mentioned except a sequencer and a
           disk drive and  a great deal of memory

LindsayGS  BTW - one feature of having sysEx (=system
           exclusive) is to store things from the synth in a
           computer so you don't need a disk drive

BLUE RAIN  You can have Velocity/Aftertouch sensitive kbd,
           w/8 track seq. and MIDI I/O/T for under $500 if
           you buy the YS200 from Sam Ash Music.

ELECTMUSIC Sam Ash had a sale on the K1 for about $550

AFL JoyceM Does the K1 have full sized keys?

ELECTMUSIC Yes

AFP TimB   Greg, tell us the price you paid for the YS200.

AFL JoyceM Sam Ash is mail order, right?  Does anyone have
           their address?

ADDRESS:   Sam Ash, 401 Old Country Road, Carle Place, NY
           11514.  1-800-4-SAM ASH (in NY call 718/347-7757)

LindsayGS  Rain - I heard that they discontinued the YS200??

MDW Flyer  I was in there 3 months ago.  No K-1's on the
           floor for < $900.  More than 3 months ago.  Just
           before XMas.

ELECTMUSIC Blue Rain.... I paid $429 for the YS200, but it
           was a close out.

BLUE RAIN  They probably did, but you can still get it.  I
           paid $429 too but the guys told me it's still
           available.

LindsayGS  Yeah, I almost bought one, but the voices were
           close to the tx81z

ELECTMUSIC I don't think you will be able to find one now

LindsayGS  It's a good price if you don't have any Yamaha
           sounds.

ELECTMUSIC Hey.. Blue Rain.. we gotta trade some sounds.
           You have SysExGS?

BLUE RAIN  Maybe you can get the BS200 (?) (=YS200w/speakers
           (yuk)

ELECTMUSIC Blue Rain... there are a few SysEx files in our
           library.

BLUE RAIN  Sure, why not, I also have the voice card'
           contemporary endition'.

ELECTMUSIC Wooo, Do you have SysExGS..Blue Rain

AFL JoyceM Not all keyboards support SysEx...my Yamaha PSR41
           doesn't :(

LindsayGS  Rain's definitely do.

ELECTMUSIC With that program you can download some of the
           Sound Files in our MIDI Library they work great
           in the YS200.

BLUE RAIN  Yes, my synths do support SysEx messages

LindsayGS  Rain - leave me Email about sysExgs if you're
           interested.

AFL JoyceM NOTE, we will be discussing Lindsay's
           program SysExGS next week, the 25th.

ELECTMUSIC Blue Rain.. what other synths do you have?

BLUE RAIN  Just the S-50 and the YS200 for now :(

Bill234    Lindsay, I just downloaded demo of SysExGS.  I am
           sure I will be interested.

LindsayGS  Fine, Bill - leave me questions by Email or in
           MIDI/Let's Discuss.

Bill234    Have to get MIDI interface first, tho!

LindsayGS  yeah - I think that's def a good idea :)

Bill234    Enjoying  my new synth, just on its own, w/o
           computer, right now.

DAGII      Anybody know how to program a Passport style 6850
           MIDI board?

AFL JoyceM Not me....Greg, Lindsay?

LindsayGS  Yes, I wrote some 6502 for it about 4 yrs ago.
           What do you want to know?

ELECTMUSIC Dag... there some problems with the 6850 board
           when its in the GS.. mainly losing MIDI data

DAGII      I'm into hardware and I think I can make my Apple
           into a pitch to MIDI converter.  I can detect
           which pitch it is.  I need to know how to output
           MIDI data.

LindsayGS  Maybe we should put this into a folder in the
           MIDI LD - - it's gonna get real technical real
           quick.

DAGII      Can anybody email me some source code fragments,
           addresses, entry points, etc.

LindsayGS  Do you have the manual that came with the card?

DAGII      No.  I bought an empty board and stuffed it with
           chips myself.  No dox.

LindsayGS  If you open a new folder in the MIDI/LD area,
           I'll see what I can dig up.

DAGII      Thanks.  Will do.

AFL JoyceM Thanks, Dag....keep us informed :)

LindsayGS  There's a timing chip and a serial chip,
           (Motorola, I think).

AFL JoyceM Anymore questions on synthesizers, keyboards?

DAGII      Would anybody be interested in building project
           that would make their Apple into a MIDI
           controller?  (Only takes 2 chips!)

LindsayGS  DAG - I wrote a program to read the joystick on a
           II+ and made it do pitch bending - but it was
           real slow.

ELECTMUSIC I would be interested in seeing what your doing
           DAG.

DAGII      I'll probably offer the project/article to Ross
           Lambert at 8/16 magazine.

LindsayGS  The mouse would be much better, because of the
           interrupts in the GS.

AFL JoyceM Why not to SoftDisk-GS, DAGII?

DAGII      Would Softdisk-GS publish a hardware construction
           article?

AFL JoyceM I would think so, DAG, but you can check with
           them.

LindsayGS  Which apple, DAG, GS?

DAGII      Should work on all of them.  Small ML driver
           routine and circuit that interfaces to the game
           port.  1 Mhz machines workfine.

LindsayGS  DAG - look at the specs on the timing in the game
           port - its millisec, not micro sec.  I'd be very
           impressed if you can do anything with the game
           port!

DAGII      I've already done it.  Not only can it tell which
           pitch I play on my trumpet, but it can tell
           whether I'm sharp or flat!

LindsayGS  OK - but putting that data into MIDI is gonna be
           REAL hard to do, because of the timing..(sounds
           impressive so far).

DAGII      Well, sure would like to see some code to give
           mean idea of what needs to be done.

ELECTMUSIC Even as a tuning machine...

LindsayGS  We'll see what we can come up with.

DAGII      Thanks.  Don't mean to dominate here.  I'll lay
low for a while.

AFL JoyceM DAG, we appreciate your comments and your idea
           sounds VERY interesting.  Please keep us informed
           and our staff in AMS is here to help and please.

LindsayGS  No problem!  We love to hear about all the stuff
           that's going on.


AFL JoyceM If there are not more questions on
           keyboards/synthesizers, and since our hour is
           about up...and your AFL needs to get some files
           released -  I would like to invite all of your to
           attend next week in a discussion on Lindsay
           Hough's great program, SysExGS.  I won't be here
           (vacation), but Lindsay and ELECTMUSIC will be
           here to help and answer all your questions.

AFL JoyceM Hi, Apl...you had a question. Go ahead.

Apl Artist Ok, I need to convert a MusicStudio 2.0 digitized
           sound into a file that I can read with the Sonic
           Blaster sound program, OR, to convert a MCS sound
           file to somthing useable.

AFL JoyceM Greg, Lindsay?  I don't know of a program, yet :)

Apl Artist OR, if anyone has a sound file of a flute and
           violin, that would be of help too. A sampling
           that is.

LindsayGS  Joyce - I may be wrong, but I don't think there's
           a nothing out there that handles MS files except
           MS...Greg?

ELECTMUSIC Apl... Sonic Blaster, as far as I know, won't
           accept or convert ASIF sound files to MStudio.

Apl Artist I know, that is the problem. :(

AFL JoyceM I think you can use SoundSmith to make WVBK files
           for MS, but not the other way around.

Apl Artist I need the files from MS.

ELECTMUSIC They where planning to issue an upgrade that
           would allow the user to work with Mstudio files

Apl Artist Does anyone have any samlings of the two sounds
           mentioned or make them?

ELECTMUSIC Apl.. leave a posting in the Let's Discuss
           area..maybe someone can come up with the file for
           you. Specifically, mention the details of the
           sound file you want.

AFL JoyceM Thanks, Artist.  Will that help you?

Apl Artist Got it. Thanks, will post.

AFL JoyceM Okay, the witching hour is past...and I must say
           goodnight.  Be sure to attend next week, the
           25th.  Night all, and thanks.

America Online - 1990