Apple II Music & Sound Conference October 3, 1990 10:00pm EDT Subject: SysExGS and MIDI Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM) LindsayGS What ya think (just don't let apple know - I've officially changed it to "SysEx for the Apple IIGS Computer" - GS is copyrighted. ELECTMUSIC I betcha the "GS" would stand up in court though! Especially since the GS already has been used for "Grand Sports" in cars LindsayGS Yeah...apple didn't go after them! EdwardRo You cant' copyright a title! LindsayGS Can't afford lawyers, even reasonable ones like Ed! AFL Marty That's correct Ed, but GS is a trademark. LindsayGS It doesn't matter Ed - they're bigger than I am...(A LOT BIGGER) ELECTMUSIC So SysEx... G...rand S..ports EdwardRo Or, Sys Ex for the Grand Sports computer! AFL Marty You could call it SysEx for that wonderful computer with graphics and sound that Apple ignores. AFL JoyceM Okay....I think we can get started now....some announcement first...and then to our topic.: Welcome to the Apple II MUsic & Sound conference. Tonights topic is MIDI and SysExGS program written by our own LindsayGS (Lindsay Hough). Before we get started, I have several announcements: 1) SYNTHLAB - I talked with Apple again today and the target date for release to on-line services is still the end of October. There are two holdups, one being the matter of getting a manual to users thru on-line servies and a bug has been found and Mark Cecys is working diligently in getting this fixed. 2) DIVERSITUNE - in talking with Bill Basham he is working very hard on the next release of DiversiTune and his target date is by Christmas. The only thing he would .... AFL Marty (I will type the manual into a text file myself if it'll speed things up.) AFL SandyB <-- will get it scanned myself AFL JoyceM let me announce was that right now (today) he is working on new instrument sounds for DT. For those of you who left ideas for Bill in AMS folder, I have forwarded these to him and he is most appreciative. Bill states as soon as this next release is in its final stages, he will come on-line here in AMS and discuss it with all of us - that should be in December. EdwardRo Great! LindsayGS Joyce - will his instr support MIDISynth? AFL JoyceM Lindsay to answer your question, I can't answer that :) AFA Bruce <> It's nice to see Bill taking interest in the GS again. AFL JoyceM 3) PASSPORT - I talked with them today regarding MasterTracks jr and Pro and we will have them as a guest in AMS in November (no date yet). EdwardRo Excellent! AFL JoyceM Okay regarding the dox for SynthLAB...the problem is not getting them set and printed it is how to get them to downloaders of SL, since APDA has strict rules on full packages being released! AFA Bruce Joyce, have they indicated any upgrade to MTPro? LindsayGS MTJR -> Pro = $99 EdwardRo Ohhhh! AFL JoyceM Just a reminder that next week is our Trivia Contest...great prizes will be given away to 3 winners :) AFA Bruce No, I meant a newer version, like they did with the Mac a while back. AFL JoyceM Okay, our subject for tonight is MIDI and SysExGS program. Any comments, ideas...etc. The floor is open :) LindsayGS Sorry, Bruce - don't know but I doubt it. AFL Marty I just offered to type the docs in Joyce. Think they will take me up on my offer? AFL JoyceM Marty, I understand that they are already at the printers :)...with an addendum.! AFA Bruce Lindsay, I'd just like to say that SysEX has been one of the more useful programs that I've had for the MIDI system. EdwardRo Ditto! AFA Bruce It has allowed me to save most of my synths original performances/voices and not be afraid of losing them forever. ELECTMUSIC I'll second the above comments LindsayGS Thanks guys - easy to please when there's a wasteland of software..BTW - Bruce - did you ever get it to work with the RX11? (a yamaha drum machine ..very big..) AFA Bruce RX-5 : No, it will not accept any SysEX info from it. LindsayGS Oh - it's not an RX11 RX5? AFA Bruce The DX7IID and the TX81Z dump the info just fine. Yes on the RX5 LindsayGS We couldn't make the RX5 work with SysEX gs - probl needed protocol AFA Bruce The RX5 is the monster machine. LindsayGS yeah - I never saw one. AFA Bruce I'm getting ready to upgrade my DX7IID with a "Grey Matter E upgrade" which will give it more memory/instruments/etc. Will be interested to see how SysEX handles it. LindsayGS me too, Bruce MikeNuzz How is Apple's MIDI interface ? LindsayGS BTW - anybody just chime in with questions or comments - informal tonight. ELECTMUSIC Lindsay, considering how busy you are... what are the chances of getting some of the earlier MIDI keyboards like the CZ101 to be recognized by SysExGS LindsayGS I think it's fine, mike - really about the same as Passport's AFL JoyceM My synthesizer doesn't support SysEx :( AFA Bruce I'm still using a Passport Mac MIDI interface with my gear. I'm afraid to change. LindsayGS I'd like to add it to an upgrade, Greg - Frankly, I think music software that does MIDI and GS music is much more lucrative than just MIDI software for the GS. Although I didn't get started in this for the $$, now I sort of need to justify the time (have another job) but I will prob upgrade the program and may include the CZs ELECTMUSIC (agreed Lindsay) ELECTMUSIC I think the concept behind the Gs should be to REDUCE the MIDI horror show AFA Bruce Lindsay, you mean doin' it for God & Country doesn't cut it with the wife anymore? LindsayGS I now have an official file type and aux type from Apple for the next vers ELECTMUSIC And thats where the new MIDI Synth tool comes in! LindsayGS LOL - Bruce - not even close, Bruce AFL JoyceM Agree, Greg....MIDI scares them as it does newcomers to using a modem :) EdwardRo I have two quesions. 1) Is v 1.1 the latest? 2) A full bank of data for my Synth (Roland D20) includes patch and rhythm data, but together they take up more than the 32k limit of SysEx. Any chance a new version will have a bigger capacity? AFA Bruce You know Greg, we seem to be looking at 3 levels of MIDI interest with the IIGS: 1 - Those who like MS, SS, and those type of programs. 2 - Those who use DTunes for sequencing and 3 - Those who use MTPro/Jr. for serious MIDI work. ELECTMUSIC Bruce... where do you see the new MIDI Tool (sorry for this sidebar Lindsay) LindsayGS Ed: 1.1 is the latest version. 2) if you can send the stuff separately, then it should still be < 32000. If not, then there's a problem. The 32K limit is a limitation of the MIDI tool set - the new tool, MIDISynth has no such limitation. So, if i write the upgrade using tool 35, it would be fine - this, in turn, depends on the timing of the release of the GSOS 6.0. ELECTMUSIC Lindsay, do you see the use of the new MIDI synth tool as part of the upgrade? AFA Bruce I'm not sure where the new tool will be, since we see it/have seen it demo'd but have not really heard anyone project thoughts on what they WILL do with it. LindsayGS Greg - There's definitely advantages to upgrading with Tool 35 - only disadvantage it's not released on a system disk yet! AFA Bruce It's sort of like having a super DEMO like Nucleus, that doesn't do anything but look nice. ELECTMUSIC Bruce, I think it will a blend of 2 and 3 EdwardRo It will be (I hope!) GS Mickey Will Sysex work with a Korg M3R? AFA Bruce Greg, I think we will see it in all three areas, IF the support is there. If the GS is going down the tubes, then who's going to bother? LindsayGS I think so, Mickey - can you send the sysex by pushing a button on it? LindsayGS Greg - what about the KorgM32R? GS Mickey When I send, nothing gets sent. AFA Bruce Lindsay, sounds like my RX5. LindsayGS Do you mean send with the program, or from the synth itself? GS Mickey The synth says it is sending, and the computer gets nothing. LindsayGS Are you using the demo? GS Mickey Yes LindsayGS What about the connections? have a good MIDI connection & cntrl panel OK? GS Mickey MTJr works fine. LindsayGS (BTW how do you know it gets nothing? have you looked at the file length after the send, or do you get an error or a hung program? GS Mickey There is no file length after...it just hangs. LindsayGS If you can look in the manual, see what the size of the sx messages you're sending are.. it should work if they're less than 32K - another possiblity is to try sending a config or setup file, that should be very short, also make sure the internal/external & slot setups are correct in the demo. I know other Korgs work, but I don't know about yours, will have to look up my AWGS (1.0) database file.:) AFA Bruce Lindsay, if you'd like, I can work with him via EMail since you and I went over this again and again with the RX5 LindsayGS Mickey -either Bruce or I can give more help by Email GS Mickey The manual doesn't say a whole lot about Sysex. I can't find the size of the dump ELECTMUSIC Mickey, how old is the the keyboard? LindsayGS The manual has a complete checklist & trouble shooting guide (which you don't have) AFA Bruce I've noticed that the new owner's manuals are providing less technical data regarding MIDI info since they are more user friendly. GS Mickey The M3R isn't a keyboard, it's a module LindsayGS Still, if he can send stuff, he should try a short setup file, or scale, some thing short just to test things. Mick - is it like the M1? AFA Bruce Not like the old days of really setting up a Moog or ARP. :) ELECTMUSIC Is this the module for that duplicates the M1 ELECTMUSIC Mickey... is the M3R like the M1 GS Mickey It is a keyboardless M1 AFA Bruce Lindsay, didn't we have something really crazy with 5.25 drives on mine? ELECTMUSIC That's the problem. I believe the M1 works with a sampled sound and then regenerates the rest of the waveform. EdwardRo Correct, Greg! ELECTMUSIC I think the file is too large LindsayGS Mickey - if the SysEx is sending portions of sampled sound, then they are prob. GS Mickey What can I do? LindsayGS Too big, and use protocol to send. Try sending something smaller - not a patch. AFA Bruce Drop back ten and punt? EdwardRo Another reason to use Tool 35 for more capacity! DangardAce Didn't they optimize ACE for 5.0.3? LindsayGS -got me, ACE AFA Bruce Lindsay, I think there is some logic there. With the synths going to more sampled sounds, the files are going to get much larger. GS Mickey What could be smaller than the patch? ELECTMUSIC You are going to have to purchase a seperate device for data dumps LindsayGS Mickey - try sending setup stuff, like master tuning, scales, other smaller files ELECTMUSIC That was a big problem with the M1, since Korg didn't include a disk drive. several third part companies came out with separate storage devices GS Mickey Don't have those options. AFA Bruce Mickey, try just sending the "System Setup" if it will allow it. LindsayGS Yes, I'd like to see unlimited size SysEx messages, which we can do with TL35 EdwardRo Then, you could send entire sequences if your synth has a sequencer! GS Mickey The M3R stores info on cards. LindsayGS I still need to find out more about the SysEx protocols used. ELECTMUSIC Exactly... that's how Korg saved a bundle with the M1 for the price of that machine they should have INCLUDED a disk drive!!!!! LindsayGS Ed - I have a small 3trk sequencer that I save my songs from with SXGS AFL JoyceM But if your synthesizer doesn't even support System Exclusive, then your out of luck, so to speak :( My Yamaha doesn't have that capability. LindsayGS The one thing that puzzles me is that we haven't swapped more stuff online seqs and patches, although there is the problem of diff instr. GS Mickey Now for the fun part. My keyboard is a Casio CZ3000! Don't laugh!!! AFA Bruce Joyce, you're just gonna have to go out and spend $3,000 so you can be like the rest of us MIDI fools. ELECTMUSIC I also wanted to see more online patches... it seems we all have different MIDI equipment LindsayGS Mick - the CZs are good instruments - it's just the quirk that they are diff MikeNuzz I don't even have a MIDI box yet EdwardRo With larger capacity and savedc sequences, you could add a feature allowing files to be saved as standard MIDI file. Then, swapping would be easier! LindsayGS Mike - If I ever get Audio Animator, I'll sell you mine cheap! ELECTMUSIC Maybe Marty will sell you his , Mike LindsayGS Ed - that's not so easy to do. If you played the seq in real time into a sequencer you could do it, but not translate SysExs that have seq info.. GS Mickey Can you dump into the CZ's? AFA Bruce I can see SysEX is going to end up like the Rocky movies: I, II, III...XI, etc AFL JoyceM EdwardRo oh well! ELECTMUSIC It seems we do have several users online who work with the Cz's LindsayGS Mick - yes, but not with SysExGS LindsayGS Greg - I put a folder in AMS/LD about who need Casio support for SysExGS and got < 8 people. :( GS Mickey I was one of those people. AFA Bruce Lindsay, I think there are more, but just how many.... well... ELECTMUSIC Yea, thats not too bad Lindsay... considering the limited MIDI audience that is using AO LindsayGS I know it's important to do (right Mickey) - and I think it will get done, but, as you know other things still are happening. GS Mickey The CZ has full size keys, isn't very heavy, and I had one around. AFA Bruce Greg, what is so ironic is the fact that AOL has the best MIDI library around. EdwardRo Lindsay, what's new on your programming horizon? ELECTMUSIC True.. Bruce LindsayGS Ed - I'm playing around a lot with MIDISynth and SynthLab. I will have some new stuff coming out. I'm not sure exactly what, but will probably have some utility support for synthLab, and also maybe other MIDIsynth stuff. ELECTMUSIC What kills me, is that very few MIDI sources even recognize how big our library is. EdwardRo That sounds good. BTW, didn't I tell you long ago that SysEx would become a very important program? AFA Bruce Just think Lindsay, this all started because you wanted a SysEX program. GS Mickey Gotta go. Thanks for the helpful information folks. See ya around. EdwardRo We're all grateful ELECTMUSIC I think that's the wave of the future with the GS! AFA Bruce Greg, most MIDI sources won't even recognize any Apple other than the Mac as a serious MIDI computer. LindsayGS Well, - I gotta tell you this has been fun. GS/MIDI users are a fantastic bunch - I only sold 40 copies but more than half came with these fantastic letters saying how happy they were , etc. - a real loyal bunch! MikeNuzz Is that a Pun Greg (WAVE of the future) :) ELECTMUSIC Someone is going to need an application... will develop it, and then sell it! ELECTMUSIC Yep, I ment it as a PUN - Glad you caught it EdwardRo Right! EdwardRo That was a sample of a pun! MikeH27 When can the average user get to see some to new MIDI stuff? MikeNuzz Come to our next club meeting. We are Demo'ing SL AFL JoyceM MikeH, hopefully, soon :) LindsayGS Mike - I think it's hard to say - the new MIDIsynth tool definitely offers programmers things they can do..The question is what will they do with it? AFL JoyceM Here in AMS :) ELECTMUSIC I think the new MIDI tool will help usher many average users into the power of MIDI EdwardRo Hope So! AFL JoyceM Agree, Greg... ELECTMUSIC I am also hoping, that regardless of Apple... the GS is such as powerful music computer, that it will continue to overshadow many developments that may be coming form the Mac's LindsayGS Ed - what's your MIDI setup like? EdwardRo I've got a Roland D20, Apple interface, Yamaha drum machine. The Roland is terrific, with onboard sequencer and disk drive. ELECTMUSIC For example... what new music developments are being released for the Mac's? LindsayGS Which Drum maching? do you use it with SysExGS? AFA Bruce Ed, which Yamabammer Drum Banger you got? AFL JoyceM Purchasing a MIDI keyboard can be a very expensive hobby...but well worth the enjoyment :) EdwardRo RX 21. Pretty primitive MIDI wise. AFA Bruce Yeah Joyce, I keep telling my wife that. ;) LindsayGS Does it do sysex? EdwardRo I haven't tried yet, but will if you like! LindsayGS Joyce - I keep writing programs and never learn to play mine! MikeH27 Ed do you pickup any noise with your system. Are you using a Rom 1 or 3 GS? EdwardRo ROM 01, no noise with SysEx, if that was what you meant.:) AFL JoyceM I just wish my Wurlitzer organ used MIDI...oh, what powerful sounds it makes! LindsayGS Just curious, in light of the RX5 problem Ed - don't have one, but would like AFA Bruce Mike, what kind of noise? MikeNuzz Welcome to the world of programming Lindsay :) MikeH27 Hiss LindsayGS LOL - Mike AFA Bruce From the internal speaker? LindsayGS (finally got MS started !) - AFL JoyceM Congrats, LIndsay :) AFA Bruce MS = ? LindsayGS MS = tool 35 - trying to learn to use the tool AFA Bruce We gotta come up with a new abbreviation since MS also = Music Studio. MikeH27 NO I have a Rom 1 GS with a Sonic Blaster and have some low level noise. AFL JoyceM Trouble with using abbreviations...MS could mean MIDISynth or MusicStudio and I have seen some use MS for MasterTracks too. MikeNuzz An abbreviation for an abbreviation :) EdwardRo When do you hear it? LindsayGS Right - I bet Joyce thought I meant that too? LindsayGS Tool 35 is another reason i havent learned to use the other MS yet! AFA Bruce oh, gee, I use MT or MTPro when I talk about it. AFL JoyceM Acutally, Lindsay I knew this time that you meant MIDISynth :) EdwardRo How about MuS and MiS? LindsayGS You know how I spend every non-working waking moment, Joyce :) AFL JoyceM Yep, Lindsay :) AFA Bruce Yeah Lindsay, and it's buggin' your wife too. ;) AFL JoyceM Actually, when I edit these logs, I will write in the full name for abbreviated terms - Makes it easier for the reader. LindsayGS Ed - MiS sounds good, but I think the forum is entrenched in MS=musicstudio LindsayGS Bruce - name tags works great for the kids! AFA Bruce How about MS35, then we know the tool number. LindsayGS (tags work, not works) AFA Bruce Oh, I thought you were talking about that new program: TagWorks. LindsayGS MS35 sounds like a long range weapon to be used in the desert MikeNuzz Hm, how about MS$23 MikeH27 What software do you all recommend and interface Audio Animator or Apples? AFL JoyceM MikeH, I prefer to stick with Apple, but each person has their own ideas/preferences. LindsayGS Mike - sysexgs works with either interface - I hear that the sequencer in AA is still buggy, but don't have it EdwardRo I like the Apple, but also use a MIDI patcher, 2x8. AFL JoyceM I am using MDIdeas stereo card, no hiss, no noise and works just fine - too bad they aren't in business anymore. LindsayGS Joyce - how much for the stereo card? MikeNuzz I'm still use my old FutureSound card AFL JoyceM Way back when it was $35. Or at least that is what I paid for it. The digitizer addition was another $35 or so. ELECTMUSIC I am also still using FSound, and I have Audio Animator. LindsayGS Unbelievable - no wonder they're not in business AFL JoyceM I am thinking of getting the Sonic Blaster....I don't digitize much - Like Lindsay, not enough time :) ELECTMUSIC I DON"T like the card specific nature of AAnimators software EdwardRo Sonic blaster is great! AFL JoyceM They made some other great products, Lindsay. ELECTMUSIC (same on Sonic Blaster) ELECTMUSIC Somebody send me a patch please!!!!! AFL JoyceM Any more questions regarding SysExGS or MIDI? EdwardRo Sonic Blaster will digitize with Hyperstudio's Sound Shop. AFL JoyceM Good to know, Edward...thanks. LindsayGS It's cheap, right ed (<100?) EdwardRo Yup! AFL JoyceM Okey....our time is just about up, but I would like to invite all of you and you can invite your friends to next weeks Trivia Contest. ELECTMUSIC Thanks Lindsay!!!!!!!! EdwardRo Thank you, Lindsay! LindsayGS Thanks to everyone who showed up! AFL JoyceM Thanks, Lindsay, most enlightening...just wish you had more time to enjoy your MIDI and music :) AFA Bruce Thanks for SysEX most of all. :) AFL SandyB Joyce, I figure about 12 more sessions and I'll know how to ask an intelligent question in here, :)...Thanks, :)! AFL JoyceM Sandy...remember no question is dumb...we are here to help the beginner to the more advanced. Thanks for coming by :) LindsayGS Sandy - any question is fine (Greg answers 'em - Bruce & I tell the jokes!) ELECTMUSIC Sandy all questions are intelligent... just some more then others :) EdwardRo You call them jokes? AFL JoyceM Thanks all for coming tonight and remember next week is our Trivia Contest. America Online - 1990