Apple II Music & Sound Conference February 14, 1990 10:00 ET Subject: MIDI for Beginners. A free-flowing discussion of MIDI on the GS, including SysEx-GS. Forum Leader: Tim Barwick (AFL TimB) MegaUser <-- just got a MIDI interface and a couple of MIDI thingees. AFC JoyceM Oh, what MIDI interface, Apple's? MegaUser Nope, AE's and a keyboard and a tone box. AFC JoyceM AE's Sonic Blaster or Audio Animator? MegaUser (Is it called a tone box or do I have that wrong?) Audio Animator---SB doesn't have MIDI. AFC JoyceM Great, Phil Montoya of AE usually attends our chats. He wrote the software for Audio Animator and Sonic Blaster AFC JoyceM Hopefully, Mega, we can answer any MIDI questions you might have. AFL TimB If you folks take a look at your menu bar at the top of the screen (OA-T), you'll see our new Hot Shot option. Open it up for info on tonight's chat. CraigO1 What is needed to connect a IIGS with an electronic keyboard? AFL TimB Craig, good question. Greg, you wanna field this one? ELECTMUSIC Craig, you need to make sure you have a MIDI keyboard, next you will need to purchase a Midi Interface (I recommend Apple's), and finally some MIDI software then your all set MegaUser Why do you recommend Apple's hardware??? (just curious)! Snake28 I just purchased a Yamaha PortaSound PSS-680 it sounds great ELECTMUSIC Apple's MIDI Interface is the least expensive one (assuming a discount). MegaUser Any other reasons besides cost? ELECTMUSIC I would also assume future support. AFC JoyceM I think Apple's MIDI interface is a no brainer and one knows that all software will support it! AFL Marty It's also pretty simple. Just plug and play... don't have to open the machine. AFL TimB I've seen Apple's MIDI interface as cheap as $89 and most interfaces need their own power supply, Apple's doesn't. ELECTMUSIC Tim, how about $79! AFA Gene Not to mention guaranteed compatibility with all MIDI software past, present and future. CraigO1 I've been reading a lot about Sonic Blaster- a good choice? MegaUser SB doesn't have MIDI! AFL TimB Craig, SB is ok, but it doesn't do anything with MIDI. AFA Gene You must be referring to Audio Animator, which is basically Sonic Blaster with MIDI and a few other goodies. AFL Scott I wanna know how to get new instruments into a MIDI file! AFL TimB Scott, instruments into a MIDI file? ELECTMUSIC Scott, the new MIDI tools should allow developers to give us access to that. AFC JoyceM When will these tools be released? AFL Scott That's what I really need... creating new instruments. LindsayH Speaking of interfaces, does anybody know if Audio Animator uses a 6850 chip? MegaUser AA uses the 8530, I think. BostnFrank What's the cheapest honest MIDI input device/keyboard/whatever? AFA Bruce Frank, probably a Casio keyboard. AFL TimB The word is (more to come next week) that the new MIDI Synth Tools will have a lot more features. LindsayH Tim - does your AA work with MTjr or Pro? AFL TimB Lindsay, my understanding is that AA will work with Jr but not Pro. MegaUser My AA manual says you have to rename a file to use it with MasterTracks. To use the AA with MTJr, you rename "CARD8530.MIDI" to "CARD6850.MIDI". Doesn't say anything about MTPro. AFL TimB <-- Never got a manual, perils of beta testing. LindsayH Mega - what do you tell it is, an external box, and then use control panel set to internal? AFC JoyceM You all should download DR Phred's Fresh Aire II songs for DiversiTune, they're great. AFA Bruce Dr. Phred has uploaded some excellent music into your library Tim. AFA Gene He was our December 1989 Forum Contest Winner. (Folks, see From the Forum Leader for details about the contest!) AFC JoyceM DR, I finally saw the music book for Fresh Aire II...expensive! DR Phred Please, please, you are embarrassing me. ELECTMUSIC Applied Engineering is releasing a patch so that AA would work with MTPro LindsayH Mega - does AA give you the 8530 driver with the stuff? MegaUser yep. LindsayH Greg - what is the patch for MTPro? AFL TimB Pro won't run with an internal card. Period. AFL TimB Also folks don't forget to check out Lindsay's new and incredibly innovative SysExGS. AFC JoyceM Lindsay, is the program SysEx-GS now available - full program? DR Phred I thought for sure that SysEx didn't work with my equip, until I noticed that my MIDI cables had shorted! AFL TimB DR, that'll do it. AFA Bruce Tim, did you get your working copy of SoundSmith yet? AFL TimB Bruce, no I haven't. The author may be overwhelmed with fees. Or he may have taken the money and run. AFL TimB Lindsay, I was discussing SysExGS with Mark Cecys (author of new MIDI Synth Tool) today. He was amazed that no one had written a Sysex program and realized its importance. AFC JoyceM I can't get Lindsay's program to work with my equipment, could be the fact that I am using MusicStudio's MIDI file and not GSOS 5.02's? AFL TimB GREG: Any date on that AA MTPro patch? ELECTMUSIC Joyce.. I don't think your keyboard works with SysEx AFC JoyceM Oh no, Greg. Why not? AFL TimB Right Joyce, mine doesn't either. ELECTMUSIC Phil (from Applied Engineering) said the next software release was being approved by AE's quality control LindsayH So they wrote their own driver and fool the GS into using it! AFL TimB Lindsay, yes they do. They got the MIDI Driver code from Apple and changed it to address the internal card. LindsayH I think that means that if you do the same thing, SysExGS will work with it - not the demo that's up. AFC JoyceM Greg, why won't Tim's or my keyboards work? ELECTMUSIC Joyce, SysEx is basically found on the synthesizers rather than Keyboards. AFL TimB Joyce, some MIDI keyboards cannot do a Sysex dump. AFA Bruce Joyce, what keyboard are you using? AFC JoyceM Yamaha PSR-41, Bruce. ELECTMUSIC Tim's synthesizer can do a sysex dump, but because it was an early model it needs the sysex command from the computer first. MegaUser Can I ask a MIDI Hook-up question? (I think it may be tricky :) AFL TimB Mega, go ahead. MegaUser I just got (a couple of days ago) an Audio Animator, a keyboard,and a tonebox, all with MIDI In, Out, & Through, and I want BOTH the GS and the keyboard to be able to control the tone box, as well as talk to each other. HOW? ELECTMUSIC What's a tonebox? AFA Bruce I think he means Tone Generator. LindsayH He means a voice module? MegaUser Sound Box? I'm not sure---I STILL haven't figured out what it's called! (everybody says something different)! AFA Bruce Sounds like a MIDI patchbay is needed. LindsayH Mega - I have the same setup and use an AB box out of the keyboard 'A' sends to GS, 'B' to TX81. MegaUser I have to use a switcher? AFA Bruce No, Lindsay and Greg are right. ELECTMUSIC Ok, you can use the AA as your sequencer and the Keyboard as your controller MIDI out from your keyboard into the GS, then from MIDI out on the GS go to the MIDI In of your Sound Module Keyboard-->GS--->Sound Module. MegaUser I tried that, the MIDI out on the GS doesn't send through the signal from the keyboard, and if I use the through, then the GS's own commands don't go to the sound thingee. LindsayH If both of the MIDI devices have a through, you don't need an AB box MegaUser All THREE things have a through! ELECTMUSIC The Thru has to be also set in the software...AND AA's software probably doesn't have that feature LindsayH If the keyboard has to go through the GS, then it has to be echoing through all the time doesn't it? AFL TimB AM I missing something here. Can Mega just set the MIDI Channels on the synth and voice module to different channels and do the same in AA and run it that way? ELECTMUSIC Oh, Mastertrack Jr and Pro, both support MIDI Thru LindsayH Greg - in the config you told Mega, can the keyboard play the module with no GS on? ELECTMUSIC The problem with AA's sequencer is it is REALLY Buggy and also incomplete! MegaUser Well, I'm not concerned about AA's sequencer - I've found it almost unusable. I just want a setup that will work once I get some real 'pro' software. AFL TimB Mega: Phil (from AE) has an update coming out fairly soon. LindsayH Mega- I use an AB box so I can play the MIDI stuff with the GS off. MegaUser GOOD. AFA Bruce General Question: Does anyone know of any Librarian/Editors for any type of MIDI system that has been written for the GS? AFC JoyceM I have a question about Lindsay's program and keyboards. ELECTMUSIC Mega, does your sound module have a MIDI thru built in? MegaUser Yes. AFA Bruce Mega - what kind of module? MegaUser KORG M3R AI Synthesis Module MegaUser BTW is THAT what it's called? - A "Sound Module?" AFL TimB MegaUser: Sound module. AFA Bruce There you have it. For KORG, Sound Module is the acceptable name. ELECTMUSIC Bruce... the GS is not considered a professional Midi computer..therefore none of the MIDI developers support professional applications for the GS except--> Passport Design and Lindsay's SysExGS. AFL TimB I don't consider the GS a professional MIDI computer (sorry Greg) but I DO consider the GS a serious amateur's MIDI computer. AFA Bruce Yeah, I read the music trades too. We can thank Apple for that one. ELECTMUSIC Absolutely, Bruce AFL TimB Something's still fishy about Passport coming out with MTPro. I can't believe they did it without some major prodding. ELECTMUSIC Thanks to grassroot people like Lindsay. AFA Bruce Lindsay, there is a whole group of us that would love a librarian/editor. AFC JoyceM Lindsay or Greg. How is one to know what keyboards and/or synthesizers will work with Lindsay's program. What should we look for in the manuals? AFL TimB Joyce, you should look for Sysex or MIDI Dump, right guys? ELECTMUSIC I think Passport Design is trying to have some MIDI software for all computers LindsayH Joyce - so far it looks like all keyboards that send real SysEx dumps will work, except those sending samples. AFA Bruce My manuals did mention System Exclusive messages in the tech sections, so I started on that premise. ELECTMUSIC Joyce, generally SysEx will NOT be found on keyboards, but will be found on Synthesizers and samplers. Keyboards = consumer products. AFC JoyceM Greg, stated that my keyboard says: System Exclusive: Specific info about each sound designed. What does that mean? LindsayH Greg - aren't the Yamaha keyboards an exception to that? ELECTMUSIC If you can't redesign the sounds of your keyboard (ie. Presets) why would you need SysEX? AFC JoyceM Because I want to use files between DT and MS, Greg. LindsayH Greg - My keyboard's voices won't change, but the SysEx sends and rcvs a small sequencer. (PSR 70). AFL TimB Sysex is a very difficult concept to explain, could you try Lindsay/Greg? ELECTMUSIC Yes, I would consider that a sysex feature... if your instrument has a sequencer built in AFA Gene Speaking of Korg, has anybody here played with the new T1? (thinking of maybe getting one) AFC JoyceM Greg, does my keyboard have a synthesizer built in? ELECTMUSIC You also have to be careful in reading the MIDI Implementation charts to make sure that SysEx is supported. LindsayH Well, a System Exclusive message is a message sent by and received by a particular model MIDI unit. AFL TimB What's in the message? LindsayH It can have any info that that unit contains - songs, voices, set-ups etc., anything that you told the unit to remember, it can send in a SX message so, if you send and receive the messages by computer, you can rapidly switch settings (e.g. download and upload 100 voices at a time - like Greg just did). ELECTMUSIC Tim, the most important feature of Lindsay's program is that it will save users the cost of buying the Ram cards that are options on most synthesizers today. AFC JoyceM Lindsay, but SysExGS won't recognize my MIDI. Is it because I am using MusicStudio's MIDI driver and not GSOS's? AFA Bruce Greg, are you still going to put up an explanation of System Exlusive in Let's Discuss? AFA Gene Bruce: It will be a New File. LindsayH Joyce - don't confuse SX and MIDI - SX is just one type of MIDI message. ELECTMUSIC Yes, I will put an informational text file designed from the musician point of view, I'll leave the programing specifics to Lindsay. AFC JoyceM I wish I could use the program...I would write something from a beginners standpoint. LindsayH Joyce needs to figure out if she can send/rcv SX messages with her keyboard AFA Bruce Joyce, what happens when you run SysExDemo? AFL Marty Shouldn't there be something in the manual about SX if her keyboard supports that feature? ELECTMUSIC Joyce, what does it say specifically about sysex in the manual? Does your keyboard have a sequencer built in and can you design new voices AFC JoyceM What the manual says (actually, what Greg wrote about it) is: System Exclusive: Specific info about each sound designed....oops...he has a NO there. Sorry guys. LindsayH The user needs to know how to send/rcv SX with their equipment or the SXdemo won't do any good. Joyce - does it have any sequencer? that is store songs? ELECTMUSIC Ok,Joyce, I gave that answer to you in case someone ever wrote a sysex program for the GS. Joyce sent me the MIDI Implementation chart to decipher for her next to the sysEx description I wrote "No"! (little did I realize.. someday someone would)! AFC JoyceM Won't work. No, Lindsay. Only it's own, but can't save it. Well, it looks like I will have to start saving money for my next keyboard for Christmas next year...long wait! AFL TimB I bet that Lindsay would be willing to include info on Sysex ability if people let him know what their synths can handle. GerryR5 What kind will you buy then, Joyce? AFC JoyceM One that has a sequence, disks to save stuff...who knows what technology will be out there in 10 months! AFA Gene BTW, Sam Ash recently lowered their price on the D-10 to below $800. Great deal for a synth with awesome sound quality in its class. ELECTMUSIC Gene, did you have a chance to try Lindsay's program with the Roland D5? LindsayH Tim - so far it seems pretty straight forward - If the Synth has voice info or sequencer info, or set-up info, it seems to work - if the synth sends samples, then it doesn't work. AFA Gene Greg: see mail.I will thoroughly test it out with my D-5, Lindsay, as the D-5 has had some problems with Music Studio and other GS MIDI progs. AFL TimB People often don't know what capabilities their synths have. I think a ref. addendum would really come in handy. AFC JoyceM I agree, Tim. AFA Bruce I can safely say that Lindsay's program is working on Yamaha TX81Z, RX5, and I'm getting ready to work with a DX7IID. LindsayH Tim - do you mean in the SysExGS manual? ELECTMUSIC What I would recommend for now Tim, is if everyone who uses the program/demo post their findings in the folder in the MIDI section, and then Lindsay could include a support list with the demo. DangardAce Anyone get 'MusicBox' yet? AFC JoyceM DangardAce...."MusicBox"? AFL TimB Lindsay, yup. Not constant update, just from time to time. DangardAce Oh.. System 6.0 for the IIGS, it was supposed to have better MIDI tools and a Note Synth that could knock out 15 instruments. AFL TimB I mentioned the name MusicBox to the MIDI Synth Tool writer along with the rumored release date of tomorrow. He didn't know anything about either item. however he is our guest next week, and I've been informed that seed copies are being sent out next week. LindsayH Tim - I'm still thinking of uploading the manual with the program. AFL TimB Makes good sense to me. LindsayH I still have a couple of corrections to make in it and then I can upload it. DangardAce Uh, present company excepted, but is anyone LEFT out there to work with these seeded copies? And as always, Passport doesn't count. AFL TimB Ace: Well I've suggested some names to him. And I suspect there are quite a few people still interested in synth quality sound from a PC with no add-ons. DangardAce Yeah! That could be the ultimate pull for starving musicians. Disgruntled GS owners sell their IIGS's to poor musicians who get the whole MIDI works (if the new tools do what people want) and the GS becomes a REAL MIDI machine! AFC JoyceM I see where Hal Leonard Publishing has many sets of instructional books on beginners using electronic keyboards and how to play, etc. AFL TimB You'd be surprised at how many GS' there are still out there in active use ACE. DangardAce Sorry, Tim, I meant musically. Sorry. As a money hungry grubby retailer I'm just disappointed in the GS, saleswise. MegaUser Anybody know how to use Music Studio with Audio Animator? AFC JoyceM You can't, Mega. Right now, that is. AFA Gene MegaUser: Give AE a few more months for MS/DT support. MegaUser I work at a Used Computer Store, and when a GS comes in, it sells with 48 hours. DangardAce I was referring to the state of MIDI software on the GS, not the machine itself! GS's still sell. As I keep telling my boss "It's the machine that sells in spite of itself":) ELECTMUSIC Ace, its basically a Catch22 starting with Apple's lack of support!!!!! DangardAce MIDI calls for the ST everyday. Dozens of times a day. People buy up CakeWalk, Performer, MusicProse, Personal Composer like hotcakes for the Mac. ELECTMUSIC You should see the beautiful Mac booklets Apple just came out with. A2GS Keep in mind that the software houses (Ex. Electronic Arts) only look at the image the industry has unfairly placed on the GS, WITHOUT paying attention to the capabilities of the machine when put in the hands of the right people. (Ex. Virtual Realities, AE, AI) etc. And these houses won't look past the image even if you shove Nucleus or SoundSmith right up to their faces!! LindsayH What do people want in a librarian/editor for the GS? AFA Bruce Lindsay, we want it all. I would say, take a look at the most popular Lib/Edit and see what it does. GS people would want at least that much, if possible. DangardAce I have a MasterTracks Pro IIGS that's been sitting in the case since October. My beef is that if Apple had stood behind the IIGS MIDIwise then perhaps we'd have professional music programs like the Mac and IBM do instead of glorified roller pianos. AFA Bruce Ace, even if Apple started tomorrow, the industry is so gunshy, it's gonna take people like Lindsay to give us good programs. AFC JoyceM Our day will be reborn.... DangardAce Lindsay's program is a breath of fresh air in a vacuum. ELECTMUSIC The GS needs to "Evangelized" MIDI wise... Mr. Jon Fader. AFL TimB Ace, more to come, more to come. DangardAce When I see CakeWalk GS sell 2 units a day, maybe. AFA Gene Who is Jon Fader? AFL TimB He's Chief Evangalist for Apple (used to handle music) and does diddly for the GS. DangardAce Yes, they want good graphic editors for the DX7 and the like. They're decent and well liked. A2GS Don't talk among yourselves, nothing will get done that way, you have to let the guys like the makers of CakeWalk know you want it for the GS... AFA Bruce Yamaha/KORG/Roland are really the top groups right now. Lindsay, why not start with the TX81Z since you already own it (and so do I)! DangardAce Opcode's editor/libs on the Macs are also perfect guides to follow. Unfortunately all my suggestions involve looking at state of the Art on other computers. A2GS Nothing screams louder then high Demand for a product! What state of the art??? DangardAce If there was something as good as Cakewalk for the IIGS, it would its own demand. A2GS Companies don't create products and then wait to hear for a demand for it, they first want to see/hear if their is a market for the product to begin with. DangardAce I'm sorry I just keep looking from the store's viewpoint. ELECTMUSIC Ace... keeps us up to date on any surges of interest on the GS. GerryR5 It is sometimes hard to let them know there IS a market out there. DangardAce I see people buying Cakewalk and Personal Composer like hotcakes. A2GS Who do you think keeps him up to date? Only kidding!! ELECTMUSIC Wish we could get some PR from some of the industry magazines. DangardAce If someone would make a program as easy to use and as flexible as those programs are on the GS then you'd see GS music sales. A2GS Agreed Gerry, But the louder you scream at a company the more they'll listen! ELECTMUSIC Ace.. not without Apple behind the product! DangardAce Master Tracks Jr. and Pro are pathetic. Music Studio is even worse, if you can go that low. LindsayH Does anybody have any stats on the number of MIDI/GS users there are? Even in our forum? ELECTMUSIC Good question. I will try to compile a list this weekend. DangardAce And Pyware's Music Writer comes close to being a competent program but needs a meg and a Transwarp to be workable. A2GS There would be a whole lot more if they're was software....it's a typical Catch 22. LindsayH well - it's the cart/horse problem AFL TimB Don't forget to come next week and discover what Apple has in store for us as far as A+ quality sound is concerned. Good night. II Infinitum!! Reprinted from America Online - 1990.