Apple II Music & Sound Conference December 19, 1990 10pm EST Subject: HyperStuff Collection from Triad Venture Guest: Mike Nuzzi of Triad (Nuzz) Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM) Definitions used in this chat: HS = HyperStudio from Roger Wagner Publications HCGS or HCIIGS = HyperCard IIGS (soon to be released from Apple - probably February, 1991). MS = MusicStudio from Activision DT = DiversiTune by Bill Basham MW = MusicWriter from Pygraphics SL = synthLAB available thru APDA Nuzz How'd you make out on the license? AFL JoyceM Parik should get the papers next week...and we should have the tool here in January. Parik is in Texas and has asked me to send him the papers and check next week. Nuzz I have the license back from Apple so we're ready to go AFL JoyceM Great.....then I will ask you for all the particulars, address, price, etc. AFL JoyceM Well, now that all the important people are here...I only have one announcement to make and that is... We should have MIDIsynth Tool here in AMS the first part of January, with the NDA that Parik Rao has written. :) AFC Eddie Great news!!!! BCS Frank Nifty! LindsayGS That's great , Joyce! I know how hard you've worked for that! AFL JoyceM Our guest this evening is Mike Nuzzi of Triad Venture who is here to discuss their entry in the SynthLAB/MIDIsynth field. Mike, the floor is yours - want to tell us a little bit about Triad and the programs? Nuzz Thanks Joyce Nuzz We are introducing a series called "The HyperStuff Collection". One of the first packages will be the ClipTunes Disk. It will have 2 disks of Midisynth songs done by your own Electmusic, and will also have tool 35, and Xcmd players for HyperStudio and HyperCard IIGS. The Xcmds will let the stack user or author play music in the background very easily. There will be sample stacks in HS and HCGS formats and scripts to look at and copy. AFL JoyceM Mike, in the back ground of what? Nuzz In the background means that you can switch cards, or create buttons while the music still plays just about anything and the music plays on. AFL JoyceM Can we also create to use with your programs? DougB5 Does it disallow animation while the sound is playing? Typical Hyperstudio button sounds do? Nuzz Sure does Doug, and you can still use the digitized sounds LindsayGS Mike - has HCGS been released yet? Nuzz Not yet Lindsay, but we include both HS and HCGS xcmds DougB5 Wait, Nuzz, that didn't make sense...Oh you mean you CAN use digitized sounds, but not animation? Nuzz Doug, you can use animation AFA Gene Doug, you can use both, or neither, or any combination. :) DougB5 But you said "Yes" to question about it disallowing animation...? Nuzz But using sound and music can be tricky since they both can occupy the same doc memory - it is not reccommended to use both at the same time. LindsayGS So, xcmds are like extensions to HC or HS? (knows beans about HC stacks...) DougB5 Can I quickly poll the people in this conference: I'd like to know whether a large hyperstudio stack about Chaos and Fractals is a worthy venture? AFC Eddie I'd be interested, Doug! DougB5 Well, Hyperstudio chokes when you use both at the same time, so it's no big deal. Nuzz Yes Lindsay, xcmds do what the original programs can't. LindsayGS It's interesting stuff, Doug - DougB5 (It is very interesting to see Hyperstudio choke. It actually coughs and all) AFA Gene Yer stack idea Sounds interesting, doug. GerryR5 Doug, it chokes when you use what with it? AFL JoyceM Fractals are great :) DougB5 Great, it'll be done next February! It includes-> ... "A walk-through" Mandelbrot Set, with graphics from Woggle GS. BCS Frank Looking forward to seeing that fractal stack. DougB5 ... info on chaos theory, self-similar drawings, applications of chaos, and more! :) ... :):) Woggle is a fractal generation program for the GS GerryR5 Doug, have you been watching the Muppet reruns again? :) AFL JoyceM ....speaking of synthLAB, we will be giving away that program next week at our Trivia Contest... :) to the top winner :) Nuzz Do you want to see what the HCGS sripit to play a song would look like ? AFL JoyceM Yes, Mike. Nuzz Here goes: Nuzz On MouseUp Nuzz Synth ":Mydisk:Mysong" Nuzz End MouseUp Nuzz That's it! AFA Gene Pretty nifty DougB5 Sounds good. Of course, in Hyperstudio it would be much easier! :) AFC Eddie That's all? AFL JoyceM ...ah, techi stuff again!! Nuzz You could just type in the message box: Synth":Mydisk:Mysong" and play it on the fly. LindsayGS Sounds a lot easier than what I've been doing with TrackMouse cmds, getnextev, etc. HsBoyElroy <-- Way over my head!! :) AFL JoyceM Short and sweet, eh, Mike? DougB5 A-HA! HS is again visibly superior! :) AFC Eddie Doug's not biased! AFA Gene HyperCard GS stack talk, HSBoy :) tis a bit different from HyperStudio. DougB5 Not at all! HSHSHSHS :) ELECTMUSIC IMHO, what's important here is that MUSIC will play an important part of in the GS Hypermedia arena. DougB5 Nuzz, I'm even more interested in learning about the quality of your included songs. I have Sleigh Ride, and it's quite good! Can you give me the names of some of the others? Nuzz In HS, you place the songs in the folder with stack and type in the text box: "Mysong" - that's it for playing songs in HS. You could also type in "Choose" and bring up a dialog box and select where and what song to play. AFL Marty You can also use the Choose command :) DougB5 Or you could just buy Hyperstudio... :):) LindsayGS Mike - will you have xcmds to support sound generation or midi recording? Nuzz We're talkin HS now Doug HsBoyElroy When was HCGS released?? Or are we all "special" here 'cept me!! ELECTMUSIC With Mike's Xcmnds, and MidiSynth Tool great music can be played! MEROW You missed the meeting GerryR5 I don't have it.. AFL Marty It hasn't been released Elroy. Nuzz If you want to stop a song you type in "Stop"... Clever huh :) DougB5 That's how I feel, Elroy: very outnumbered. I feel like a freak because I only have 1.25 MB! :) HsBoyElroy YOU HAVE 1.25 MEG!!! I'm jealous ;) Nuzz HCGS is a reason to get more memory Doug. It is really nifty. DougB5 I'm sure it is, Nuzz. But I don't have the funds or the desire to sell my overpopulated memory card and buy a new one. MEROW Mike --- what is Tracker and what happened to it? AFL JoyceM Mike, what other 'clever' commands do you have for your programs? Nuzz Larry, tracker was a sorta in-house utility not meant for general release AFA Gene I kinda agree with ya, Doug. 1.25 meg should be enough to run any GS app and if HS works for you, then stick with it! (actually 1.125 meg :) DougB5 :glued to HS: :) Nuzz Gene, I remember when people said 16k was all anyone ever needed! AFA Gene LOL mike, true. :) DougB5 Now calculators have more than that... AFL Marty I think there's a market for both products though. Nuzz HyperStudio is a great program, and we intend to support it to the hilt AFA Gene Definitely, Marty! :) AFL JoyceM I remember those days too, Mike :) LindsayGS (got an A2 with 4K and thought I was in pig heaven!) AFL Marty There are things that HyperStudio won't do. You'll need HCGS for that...then again, there are applications for which HCGS is definitely overkill. GerryR5 I agree, Marty... AFC Eddie What are some of those things, Marty? AFL Marty Just check out the StudioWare library Eddie. DougB5 People underestimate the flexibiliy of HS. It is fast, easy to use, and VERY intuitive. Furthermore, no code is required AT ALL, PERIOD! :) HsBoyElroy <-- Just finishing up SKI USA Stack ver. 2.0, & HCGS makes it obsolete?? :) AFA Gene HsBoy, HS will never become obsolete. It's pretty much the standard for GS hypermedia and HyperCard GS won't really change it that much, they'll share the spotlight. HsBoyElroy Just kidding... the way HS wrapped up awards recently!! ELECTMUSIC Marty, is scripting language as easy to use as Basic in terms of a programing language AFL Marty The scripting language (the little I know about it) reminds me a little of Pascal. DougB5 the WHILEs and DOs and REPEATs... yes, quite a bit like pascal! AFL JoyceM Mike or anyone, what sort of applications do you see for Triad's programs? Nuzz Has anyone DL'd the Sleigh Ride song we put on-line. I'm sure Greg would like some fedback on it AFL JoyceM The feed back on Sleigh Ride is that is is GREAT and very nice to listen to. GerryR5 There is a big untapped market out there for "easy to use"..:) Nuzz Joyce, and stack can be enhanced with Stereo music in it :) meaning any stack AFL Marty Eddie... HCGS is very well suited for database-like applications where keeping track of data and doing mathematics with it are important. HyperStudio just can't do that. DougB5 FOUR, count 'em, FOUR awards to Roger Wagner! AFC Eddie Thanks, Marty :) DougB5 You're right, Marty, but I think mathematics in hypermedia might just be an example of "overkill".... I've seen a stack for the Mac which graphs equations in polar form. Works *slowly* and well, but the truth of the matter is that you can write a BASIC program which does the same thing. Nuzz Doug, Roger was a big inspiration and help when I wrote the Xcmd. GerryR5 Doug, I stood behind Roger and his group at the show,,it was GREAT fun watching them..he is SO nice an and unassuming..:) modest..:) Nuzz One thing I should say is that HyperStudio out of the box is not compatiblewith MidiSynth, We include a small program to make it compatable. DougB5 In my mind, hypermedia is for presentation and education, not so much for computation... AFL Marty Transcendental functions would have to be slow. I'm thinking of Hypermedia game programs wherein one would have to keep track of scores, positions, inventory, etc. AFA Gene Remember, we re not trying to have a HS vs HC hyperwar going on here! I'm personally happy that now we'll be able to have fine music with very little memory used up in hyperstudio and hypercard. AFC Eddie Ditto, Gene! LindsayGS Mike - what about conflicts between other sound-generating stacks and yours? GerryR5 <--does not particiapte in wars..:) Nuzz Most songs will only require from 30-50K AFL JoyceM Thanks, Gene....sentiments of all, I hope. DougB5 Indeed, I guess I'll take out the "Why Hyperstudio is better than Hypercard" info box from my upcoming fractals stack. AFL Marty I'm just trying to make a distinction that I perceive between HS and HCGS. No war intended. LindsayGS (midisynth does invalidate the earlier tools, right?) Nuzz No conflict Lindsay. Sound and music can be used. Just not a good idea to try them at the same time. HCGS will lock out one while the other is active AFL JoyceM But I do have a question...what sort of applications can we see from Triad's programs with the Hyper-programs? DougB5 And hey, as GS owners we're lucky enough to have BOTH! More than the Maccites can say...(although admittedly they have similar presentation programs) AFL Marty Brings a warm feeling, doesn't it Doug? :) Nuzz I don't understand Joyce AFA Gene LOL Marty starting an online war? That's like Gandhi killing people with an Uzi. GerryR5 But lots more expensive on the Mac..many users can't afford them..:) DougB5 Yes, it does Marty. I believe we should all sing.. LindsayGS I think Joyce means are you guys gonna be writing stacks... AFL JoyceM Mike, what I am asking is what type of applications do you think that people can come up with your programs and the Hyperprograms...applications that will be useful, informative, etc? ELECTMUSIC Gene was right when he said we will now have fine music for all Hypermedia AFL Marty (yes... everyone knows how quiet and unassuming I am LOL) AFA Gene Ya know, one could say that we now have a true standard for GS sequence, sound, and wave files with the advent of MIDI Synth. Nuzz A fast example would be a report on Souza(sp) It would be nice if someone could click on a list of his Marches and play that March. DougB5 Are all of the currently available synthLab songs on the AMS forum, or are there more to come soon? AFL JoyceM Ah....now that's one good idea. And Beethoven's birthday, we could have done somehting for that. But one does need MIDI to input with synthLAB. AFC Eddie Good point, Gene, as long as some developers are ready to do new apps! Nuzz Or a stack on a baby, and play The Cradle will rock as an intro. AFL Marty Or do a report on the Civil War and have a tune from that era play in the background as you go through the stack. LindsayGS Joyce - that's why I asked if there was gonna be xcmds for midi recording.. DougB5 These are excellent ideas. But how will nonmusicians find the necessary "clip music" if it's not on the Triad disk? AFA Gene Doug, America Online, of COURSE!!! :) AFL JoyceM Speaking of that Marty...remember the old Stan Freeberg song album of the Civil War? AFL Marty I'm afraid not, Joyce. AFL JoyceM ELECTMUSIC Someone correct me... but on the Mac Hyoercard,, these background songs would have to be digitized... because they don't have a midi synth tool... right? Nuzz Lindsay, next version of the Xcmd will have recording in it. LindsayGS excellent, mike (ever get PlayNote to work?) DougB5 :):) Gene, about my question above... synthlab songs? Any more to come? Nuzz Haven't had time to try it Lindsay AFA Gene Well, I just released the first few last weekend, and ONE day after I released 'em we got two more uploads. If the trend continues, it looks pretty good. AFL Marty Can't you make your own synthlab songs? LindsayGS Doug - we will have a way to get stnd midi files into synthLab format. BCS Frank So Mike, when's the next version of ClipTunes coming out? Nuzz Doug, you should have all the MidiSynth songs you could ever listen to soon. DougB5 Really? A MIDI-Synthlab conversion utility? AWESOME! :):) AFL JoyceM Also, we now have a specific library area for SynthLAB files. Nuzz Frank, lets get the first one out first :) GerryR5 I can't wait, Nuzz..:) AFA Gene Thanks to Joyce and Tim for the special libraries! :) LindsayGS A demo version should be up before end of January AFL JoyceM Yea...Lindsay :) :) AFL Marty Mike... how difficult is it to create your own midiSynth tunes? AFA Gene Super, Lindsay!! :) Nuzz I'll let Greg answer that one AFL Marty Is it something any bozo like me can do? Or do I have to be related to Beethoven? GerryR5 <--picturing Mike huddled over his computer with his orchestra playing in the background..:) ELECTMUSIC I needed to work with a sequencer... like Mastrtracks Pro so at this point in time... you need to have some knowledge of music and sequencing to create the songs. Nuzz Not I Gerry.. Tin ear here AFC Eddie Once Lindsay's program comes out, you can use mastertracks to sequence. That'll be the best way to do SL songs! AFL Marty I don't have Mastertracks. Will anything else work? AFL JoyceM Listen to Greg's (Electmusic) Sleigh Ride...it is beautifully great! ELECTMUSIC It's possible Mwriter will work - MusicWriter supports the Midi File Format. LindsayGS Anything that supports midi stnd files (like Audio Animator) AFA Gene BTW, all, Greg's Sleigh Ride also attests to the power of Lindsay's new conversion utility! AFL Marty It's still not clear to me how these songs are produced. LindsayGS AA should work - but come to think of it - maybe hasn't been tested. AFA Gene Marty, very simple, ya just create a song as you would normally using Master Tracks or Music Writer, save it out as MIDI File Format, convert it with Lindsay's utility, and voila. AFC Eddie But I don't know if you can save a song in Midi format with MusicWriter. LindsayGS Marty - you play a midi keyboard into a sequencing program, then save the data into midi stnd format, and then convert it. Nuzz Gene, don't you have to fiddle with the instruments, etc after it is converted? AFA Gene Mike: well yeah, so it's a voila with some strings attatched. :) ELECTMUSIC Just an important aside, Lindsay's conversion utility was crucial in creating all of my song files. AFA Gene SynthLAB just plays the songs, has no role in producing 'em. AFL Marty What about Music Studio or DTune? LindsayGS You can assign the instruments with synthLAB after conversion. AFL Marty Are are those passe? LindsayGS Don't think so, Marty :( ELECTMUSIC To create the song files you NEED a SEQUENCER of some sort. Nuzz Yes, and I would like to thank Lindsay for writing this SUPER utility AFC Eddie You can record synthlab songs on synthlab directly with midi, but no editing. AFA Gene Marty: as far as compatibility go, MS and DT never had it, never will. :) AFL Marty Does that mean I can't make any misteaks? LindsayGS (I would like to thank Nuzz for teaching me about toolbox programming....) ELECTMUSIC and Slab has a simple sequencer built in Nuzz can you tell us if it will be free or shareware Lindsay AFC Eddie Marty, no mistakes if you use SL to record. AFL Marty I kinda figured DT and MS were out. LindsayGS it depends on how it winds up, Mike - still adding some features to it. AFA Gene Marty: Master Tracks Pro and Music Writer allow one to fix mistakes very easily AFL Marty I know Gene. I just don't own either of those programs. AFC Eddie Marty, don't forget there will soon be a new upgrade to DT, and likely a way to convert DT songs to midi format. MEROW Lindsey --- what is the name of your utility?? AFL Marty My brother might have MW though... hmmmm. AFA Gene Marty: in that case, you're stuck with SynthLAB, which is kinda like having the composing powers of Diversitune. LindsayGS The name of the utility is called MidiMate, but I'm still adding stuff to it, so I can't tell you everything it's gonna do. AFC Eddie Diversitune has MUCH more editing than SL. AFL JoyceM Mike, when will your 'collection'/programs be available? How much and where can we get them? Nuzz OK ClipTunes will retail for $39. Available first from Programs Plus (probably $25) then other mail houses or $30 for awhile right from Triad. We do have a ClipArt+ disk also 20 screens of NICE ClipArt 4 NDa's and 4 Xcmd to help use the art in HCGS also $39 retail GerryR5 Wonder if I will find those in my Christmas stocking? :) AFL JoyceM When available, Mike? Nuzz Depends on if the stocking is still on Gerry :) Nuzz Available in about 2 weeks GerryR5 Nope..hung by the firplace, Nuzz...remember it when you looked thru the window a few years ago? LOL!!! LindsayGS Sounds great, Mike ! AFC Eddie Great, Nuzz. Thanks for helping the GS get even better than it is! AFL JoyceM Address of Triad Venture and phone number to order direct? :) GerryR5 Lots of programming and success since then..:) Nuzz Triad Venture: PO Box 12201 Hauppauge NY, 11788 - Phone number 516 732-3771. AFL Marty Joyce... when do you plan to have the synthLab library released for public viewing? AFL JoyceM I personally am looking forward to these programs (lover of good classical music) LindsayGS Hey mike - did you ever look at my SysExGS label? Nuzz Lindsay, yes I did. It looks like you shrunk it too much and remember that dithered text only looks good with a few colors. LindsayGS Ah... will try again! thanks :) AFL JoyceM Mike want to recap what the name of your programs/utilities are and what they can do for us? LindsayGS OK! thanks ! Nuzz HyperStuff Collection ClipTunes Disk and ClipArt+ disk ClipTunes contains about 25 songs, tool 35, xcmds for HS and HCGS, and sample stacks for both AFL JoyceM I am really excited about this HyperStuff...and with Parik's soon-to-be released SL NDA....we will be singing our hearts out :) Nuzz Yep, SL music really livens up the old GS AFC Eddie For all of you who don't already have SynthLAB, here's a way for you to get it Free and legally: Just come to next week's AMS chat, where we'll be giving it away to the Winner of our fabulous Xmas music trivia contest! Other prizes too! LindsayGS (where'd dja get this guy, joyce! whatta salesman!) AFA Gene Yah Eddie! :) AFL JoyceM :)....a great salesman too :) AFC Eddie Can't beat it! Nuzz Greg, can I request a song especially for BCS LindsayGS yeah, maybe a "fight" song or somethin? BCS Frank Didn't know the BCS HAD a song! ELECTMUSIC Mike... shoot... GerryR5 Battle Hymn of the Republic? :) Nuzz Can you make me an arraingment of the St ElseWhere Theme AFL JoyceM Boston Tea Party song? AFL Marty Grandma got Run Over by a Reindeer? :) AFL JoyceM Greg, how long did it take you to do the songs for HyperStuff?...actually, how long per song. Could novice's do them easily? ELECTMUSIC Joyce.. it depends... some worked out really easily ELECTMUSIC Ok... Mike Let me make that one the next one LindsayGS Believe it or not the TML library disk HAS one in MusicStudio format! LindsayGS It sounds good, too! (St Elsewhere) AFA Gene Creeping Death by Metallica! :) Nuzz ST ElseWhere was my favorite show AFA Gene I liked that show a LOT too. BCS Frank That was a great show... LindsayGS (it's on late night reruns in the northeast) AFL JoyceM Greg, you used Mastertracks Pro primarily for input? ELECTMUSIC Lindsay... that was my arrangement for TML LindsayGS REALLY! WOW! I'M IMPRESSED (SLeigh Ride's good, too!) AFA Gene I never knew it was for TML! hmm. ELECTMUSIC I did that arrangement... as soon as they took the show off the air I was pissed LindsayGS That's really EXCELLENT Greg! ELECTMUSIC AFPTim asked me it they could use it LindsayGS That's really funny - me hearing it by buying TML's compiler and knowing you! ATB EthanA Congrats on getting the SynthLab libraries set up Joyce AFC Eddie Mike, thanks for stopping by and spotlighting Triad's great new warez for us! AFL JoyceM Greg, you also have a version of Sleigh Ride for DiversiTune, right? ELECTMUSIC It also interetsing... I never knew they used it until now.... AFL JoyceM You're welcome, Ethan :) Nuzz Glad to be here Joyce LindsayGS yeah - I gotta go to bed - Greg that tune should get into MT & synthLAB format LindsayGS Definitely!!! AFL Marty The libraries are up? ELECTMUSIC Yes Joyce its posted in the Holiday Tunes AFL JoyceM Mike...thanks....it was great. AFL JoyceM Do you all have any more questions for Mike and Triad....? Oh, I do, Mike will you be entering anything for our SynthLAB libraries when your programs are released? BCS Frank Great chat.. regret I have to run... Congrats Mike... night all.... ELECTMUSIC St Else sounds like a nice Holiday project!!! Nuzz Well we did upload Sleigh Ride, don't know about any other songs, but we should have a HS stack to upload that describes what the package is (done by the famous AFL Marty) AFL Marty :blush: ELECTMUSIC Joyce... Mike's Xcmnd should be useful for any files that appear in our forum AFL JoyceM Great, looking forward to that stack in AMS too. Mike, any plans for a demo of the HyperStuff? Nuzz One of the things I'm looking at is to embbed digitized sounds as SL waves. Nuzz An actual PLAYING demo is hard to do Joyce AFL Marty I'm confused now. AFL JoyceM I guess you are right, Mike.....we will just have to do great reviews to get the public aware of them...so they will buy them...so you can do more :) AFC Eddie I'd be really interested in knowing how to create a SL wave or instrument. Nuzz I like ClipTunes because the stack designer is the real creative force AFL Marty What's the difference between a wave and digitized sound? Nuzz Almost nothing Marty AFC Eddie Except format, right? AFL Marty No wonder I'm confused. Nuzz The waves themselves are digitized. I have taken SL waves and "Cut" them out as HCGS sounds. ELECTMUSIC Marty....I think the problem is understanding what a a digitized recording of song is and a synthesized version of the same song digitizing song requires tremendous amounts of storage where synthesizing the song requires only storing the musical ideas AFC Eddie What happens after a sound is digitized to make it an SL instrument? Nuzz The tuning is everything Eddie AFL Marty Okay so far. Nuzz The instrument is synthesized from a Middle C digitized sample. The wave is the sample AFC Eddie Synthesized from a sample? ELECTMUSIC The new tool allows for really great synthesized sounds called instruments. AFC Eddie OK. ELECTMUSIC Marty.. so when a 3 minute song is played... what the GS does is have the data play the musical ideas. AFL Marty I see. Nuzz The known ingredient is that the wave is in Middle C ELECTMUSIC The musical data does use nearly as much storage as a digitized recording!!! AFL Marty I thought I had understood it before, but it seems more clear now. AFA Gene Wow, we're way into overtime, huh? :) ELECTMUSIC I really feel this is where HCGS is really going to blow away the Mac. AFL JoyceM But great learning overtime - great explanations, even I understood :) AFC Eddie This was one of our truly better chats, thanks to Mike, et al. ELECTMUSIC ya see the Mac doesn't have a Midi synth Tool!!!!! AFL Marty By the way...I attended a seminar on Macintosh HyperCard (Intro) yesterday. I found it VERY informative. Virtually everything I learned was applicable to HyperCard IIGS> AFL JoyceM I undestand that the two are basically the same, except the GS version is in color, right? ELECTMUSIC It also doen't have a Mike Nuzzi doing Xcmnds for the Tool :) AFL Marty That's right. Nuzz Except we get color and Stereo Music :) AFL Marty And they have no Tool 035 either. AFC Eddie So, let's get all those bozos to give up their macs and get with the GS!!!! AFL JoyceM Didn't Tim say last week that Mark Cecys (author or SynthLAB) is now working on Mac music/sound? Wonder if he will be doing synthLAB for the Mac? ELECTMUSIC Wait until some of these stacks appear... The mac will need a CDRom to do the same thing:) Nuzz Greg, I don't if that's good or bad :) AFL Marty From the way it was explained to me, HyperCard 2.0 supports color only in a very superficial way. Nuzz Would have to be a future Mac Joyce. They don't have the hardware ELECTMUSIC Joyce... the Mac doesn't have an Ensoniq chip AFL JoyceM See, we are a far superior computer - the GS, that is! ELECTMUSIC We always where :) AFL JoyceM Okay...it is getting late...but we will do this again, and soon., okay, Mike? Nuzz anytime Joyce AFL Marty BTW, Read my "Visit from St. Woz" on ATB - I finished the 1990 version just tonight. AFL JoyceM Really appreciate all the participation, and thanks to Mike...the GS is going places, quickly :) Nuzz Sounds neat Marty AFL JoyceM Okay...thanks Mike from Triad.....we are looking forward to your HyperStuff let us know when we can order it/them. And thanks to all of you...great chat. Nuzz Apple is going to use our Art on an introduction type stack for HCGS - I thought that was neato AFL JoyceM That is neat...and great for you guys too :) AFL JoyceM Thanks, Mike....we will do this again...night all. America Online - 1990