I hadn't noticed this yet, so I figured I'd post it... Mike America Online Apple II Utilities & Desk Accessories Forum Chat Forum Leader-Joe Schober [ AFL JoeyS ] Forum Assistant-Warren Hart [ AFA Warren ] Forum Consultant-John Copple [ AFC JohnC ] Forum Consultant-Andy Nicholas [ ShrinkIt ] Wednesday -July 29, 1992 - 9pm EST Topic: KFest Avatar Universe Master Animasia Sys 6.01 Super Drives HSTs Edited transcript of an Apple II Utilities & Desk Accessories Conference. The date and topic of the conference is listed above. This is a regular text file. No further processing is necessary. AFA Warren Tonight's subject is KFest AFL JoeyS So, who all DID make it to KFest?? :) JoshuaT256 As I was telling Warren, I was there from Thursday to Sunday. AFL JoeyS Comments on the show... people, products, announcements, general feelings? AFL JoyceM Was the IIGS clone shown, seen, etc? AFL JoeyS The Avatar, Joyce? It's not a IIgs clone, really... JoshuaT256 Bill had a conference on it. From what he said, it actually sounds feasible to me. AFL JoyceM Yes, the Avatar JoshuaT256 It's more of a nifty 65816 machine that happens to have GS emulation. AFL JoeyS Yes, well, Bill is one of the people who can certainly do it TECHNICALLY. Funding is a different matter. AFL JoyceM Conferences are nice, but did anyone see it, the Avatar, that is? AFC Ted And getting people to buy it is a third matter AFL JoyceM People to support is still another matter, developers, etc. AFL JoeyS No, Joyce. I don't even think Bill has a prototype yet, let alone a demo model. AFL JoeyS Joshua, was Bill's conf under non-disclosure? JoshuaT256 No, the conf was open to one and all. AFL JoyceM So, it is a 'just talk about' item? AFL JoeyS Pretty much, yes, for now. (comp.sys.apple2 is going CRAZY over it... %) AFL JoeyS Okay, wouldja mind hitting the highlights, then, Josh? :) JoshuaT256 Sure. Basically, it's a 10 MHz 65816 machine layed out like a star LAN network. AFC Ted What does that mean? JoshuaT256 There's several coprocessors doing much of the work, and the '816 does the coordination. The graphics chip is a 34010 right now, but Bill is looking into maybe a 34020, depending on cost. Lemme dig up my notes here for more... AFL JoyceM What's the difference between a 34010 and 34020? AFL JoeyS (For those not familiar with the 340xx graphics chips, they allow you to have, among other things, a large virtual display map... i.e. the chip itself can manage a high-resolution, high-color image. This image can then be scaled to the actual platform hosting the chip.) (Scaled's not the right word, but hopefully you get the idea... :) AFL Marty Would that be analogous to display postscript, Joe? AFL JoeyS No, Marty. The chip isn't a definition-oriented chip... it still does bitmaps. But the chip can handle bitmaps of a much higher quality than the host machine actually offers... and the chip can be JoshuaT256 Okay, I've got my diagram now. There's a 65265 microCONTROLLER handling a serial mouse port and a MIDI port. The keyboard is connected directly to the '816 though. A disk controller handles two serial ports, a parallel port, a CD-ROM port, an IDE hard drive port, and the floppy drives. It's a "state machine" like the Disk II, and it can read Apple II GCR disks, MFM disks (IBM and Mac high density), as well as Amiga/Atari ST GCR disks. AFL JoyceM GCR? AFC Ted What does "state machine" mean? JoshuaT256 Group Code Recording. It's kind of technical. AFL JoyceM Gotcha...thx JoshuaT256 Basically it reads Apple II, Mac, IBM, Amiga, and Atari ST disks. AFC Ted it refers to how data is recorded on the disk, Joyce. AFL JoyceM Thanks, Ted AFL JoeyS scaled simply by upgrading its memory, as I understand it. Don't quote me on this stuff. :D JoshuaT256 There are four AT-style slots. Each slot is mapped to 256k of memory in banks $C0 through $DF. So each slot gets four banks of memory space. And finally, there are optional "sub-processors". The minimum will be 3 or 4, and in theory up to 65,536 (!) can be present. They communicate with the 65816 over a fully arbitrated high-speed bus. These processors can be of ANY type, maybe more 65816 chips, or 65265 chips, or 80386's. They will be carried on credit-card style peripheral cards. It will be possible to offload tasks to these subprocessors for true multiprocessing. In theory, you could add a 386 subprocessor and make the Avatar run MessyDOS software. AFL JoyceM Will we see an actual machine in our lifetime? What help does Bill need, etc.? JoshuaT256 Bill says that confidential project for another company has given him enough capital to build some prototypes. AFL JoeyS Cool... :) JoshuaT256 What I'd like to see is funding from Bill Mensch. AFL JoeyS From Bill Mensch?? Yeah, it'd be nice, but don't hold yer breath... JoshuaT256 Bill has certainly got this thing well planned out. He's even figured out how to emulate the Apple II video modes without reverse-engineering a Mega II. AFL JoeyS What's he gonna do about the ROM infringement problem? (insert "copyright" in some appropriate place there) JoshuaT256 Basically they're gonna try to clean-room all new toolbox routines. Jawaid is one of the people helping Bill with that. I almost forgot, the 65265 chip handles the sound. Full stereo digital sound. As far as I know though, it won't emulate the Ensoniq chip. AFL JoeyS Sort of a problem for IIgs emulation. %) AFL JoyceM Great, Joshua ....re the stereo digi sound :) Why won't it emulate the Ensoniq chip? JoshuaT256 For some stuff, yes. Anything using tools will work, but all the nifty MOD players won't :( It may emulate the DOC, I don't have that info written down here. I didn't have a notebook and was jotting this down on the back of a sheet of paper AFL JoeyS It'd be interesting to see 'em try to duplicate MIDI Synth on another chip... %) AFL JoyceM True, Joey :) AFL JoeyS LOL... crowded sheet of paper, I'd think. :) JoshuaT256 You bet. Most of it is a block diagram of the machine's architecture. Maybe I'll scan it at work and upload the darn thing :) AFL JoeyS Cool... that'd be good, :). Thanks, Josh! Appreciate the overview... :) AFL JoyceM What format, Joshua? JoshuaT256 You're welcome. There's a lot more to the Expo though! AFL JoeyS I know, Josh. :) You wanna keep going, or are your fingers about to fall off? :) JoshuaT256 Joyce, I can upload it in ANY format. I'll scan on a Mac (I work at an Apple dealer), but I can convert it. AFL JoyceM Would appreciate that, Joshua...(have an Apple IIGS, not a Mac) :) JoshuaT256 I've got plenty more on other things. Foundation was released officially. AFL JoyceM What actually is Foundation? AFL JoeyS Cool... that's a hot resource utility. :) JoshuaT256 It's a resource editor. It's still a bit bare, but it crashes less than Genesys does. AFL JoeyS Closest description, Joyce: ResEdit. AFL JoyceM Oh, I remember....thanks... JoshuaT256 I own a copy and I'm working on an rBundle editor for it. AFL JoeyS Cool. Did Mike Nuzzi/Triad release the rSoundSample editor for it? JoshuaT256 Yep, it was selling for $25 I believe. I didn't buy that part, since I don't really need it. AFC SteveB Yep...SoundREM was selling. AFL JoeyS Cool... :) AFC SteveB (SoundREM's been final for a few weeks) JoshuaT256 Animasia was showing demos of Animasia 3-D, an animation and rendering program for the GS. The darn thing actually can read AutoCAD DXF files! AFL JoeyS Terrific, Josh! How was its performance? JoshuaT256 I was watching the animation and it was pretty smooth. One of the programmers said it would be even better by release, with better dithering of the colors when rendering. And it's supposed to retail for only $99, an incredible deal for a rendering application! AFC SteveB Animasia is incredible. It does everything. AFL JoeyS No kidding, Josh! Did they have an estimated release date? JoshuaT256 Sometime later this year. I have the propaganda sheet around here but I cant find it. AFC JohnC Did Apple have anything to announce this time around? JoshuaT256 ECON Technologies released a new hard drive utility called Universe Master. I ran out of money though JoshuaT256 System 6.0.1 was shown. It has some minor but wonderful improvements. AFL JoyceM Like what,Joshua on 6.01? JoshuaT256 The primary purpose of 6.0.1 will be to support the Apple II EtherNet card (coming later this year) For one, it has keyboard navigation in the Finder, so you can move between icons with the arrow keys You can also click on the column titles on "view by..." windows to change views. AFL JoyceM I 'read' that it would also have MSDos FST, on 6.01? is that true? AFL JoeyS Makes it all more Mac-like. %) JoshuaT256 Provided no bugs are found in it, the MS-DOS FST will be out ina read-only form with 6.0.1 AFL JoyceM Any release date on 6.01? JoshuaT256 It's supposed to be as fast reading as the ProDOS FST, and later on they will make it read/write AFC Ted "When it's ready" :) JoshuaT256 That's it, Ted. AFL JoeyS The MS-DOS FST (read-only) was announced, yes. It'll require a SuperDrive to read 3.5" floppies, or you'll be able to read other devices (i.e. Syquest cartridges) directly, if you want. JoshuaT256 The EasyMount extension is now built-in as "Make Alias..." and works for anything except documents, and even that may change if time permits. AFL JoeyS But the aliases are only valid from within Finder, correct? AFC Ted Who's doing the revisions to the Finder? JoshuaT256 They didn't say, but that's what I assumed. JoshuaT256 Dave Lyons is heading up the Finder work to my understanding. JoshuaT256 Oh, speaking of speed, there's an 18% speed increase in the HFS FST. And whoever wrote that INIT to scroll the boot icons will be out of businesss when 6.0.1 ships :( LindaW19 Any change in floppy drivers? AFL JoeyS Yeah, the faster HFS FST will be NICE... ('specially for those of us with large HFS HD partitions %) JoshuaT256 No change to the drivers, Linda, except the Appletalk drivers (added EtherNet support) AFL JoyceM Did I miss when 6.01 is supposed to be released? AFL JoeyS "RSN", Joyce. :) JoshuaT256 There was no firm release date, Joyce, just another "when it's done" type answer. AFL JoyceM Oh..that answer, thx AFC SteveB 6.0.1 will fix the problem that made people go back to 5.0.4 drivers, too. AFC Ted Which problem was that, Steve? LindaW19 That's what I was asking about. AFL JoyceM What problems? JoshuaT256 It was interesting to see how fast SuperDrive controllers sold at the show after the FST was shown! AFL JoyceM GMTA Spottysoft The 5.25 drives..... (non Apple ones..) AFC SteveB Disappearing volumes was the problem -I think-. AFL JoyceM I don't have the problem..... JoshuaT256 It was really bad with Vulcans. LindaW19 Will the AMR 3.5" drive pain still be there? Spottysoft Josh.... what were the SuperDrive cards going for?? AFL JoyceM And the drives $$$$$? JoshuaT256 We were selling them at the Alltech booth for $139. The list is $149, and some places had them @ $129. The card is a lot more complex than the old 3.5 controller. It appears to have an actual coprocessor of some sort on it. Spottysoft Apple FDHD is $429 I think, Joyce... same as the Apple 3.5 (800K). AFL JoyceM What slot must they go in? Thanks, Spotty...was afraid of that price JoshuaT256 Any slot Joyce, but usually slot 5, since this card replaces the built-in 3.5" controller. AFL JoeyS Right... the FDHD basically bumped the Apple 3.5 Drive off the price list (I don't believe the 800K drive is actually sold anymore, since you CAN use a SuperDrive as a 800K if you want). JoshuaT256 At the dealer where I work we sell FDHDs for $259. AFL JoyceM Oh...so you either have 3.5" or FDHD? but not both? Rook2 FDHD? AFL JoeyS No, Joyce, you can have both. LindaW19 Will some of the cheap ones sold for the Mac (Fujitsu, for ex) work? JoshuaT256 You can have both on one controller card. Spottysoft There are some third party drives (for Macs) tho... but whether or not they work on an Apple II is another animal. AFL JoeyS Rook: Floppy Disk/High Density... Apple's 1.44 megabyte 3.5" SuperDrive. AFC Ted Floppy DIsk High density, or something like that AFL JoyceM But according to what Joey said, why have both? JoshuaT256 If the drivers are truly Apple-compatible then they should work. I've heard AE's drives work great. AFL JoeyS Well, having two 3.5" drives is always nice, Joyce... and there's no upgrade plan from Apple 3.5"s to SuperDrives. AFL JoyceM I have 2 now...but a FDHD sure looks inviting too...oh well, Rook2 How much more is a HD, why would you buy a FDHD? LindaW19 I haven't thought of a _good_ reason, at least for me. AFL JoeyS Biggest reason, Rook, is to exchange floppy disks with other computers... in case you missed it, Apple announced an MS-DOS FST for IIgs System 6.0.1, that allows you to directly read MS-DOS disks on the GS... IF you have a SuperDrive. AFC JohnC 105 meg is about $60 more than list price AFL JoyceM My new 50 meg HD will cost me $319 AFA Warren More capacity for Backups? LindaW19 Of course, there's always the reason that...it exists. AFL JoeyS And there's that, yes, Linda. :)) AFL JoyceM True, Linda...how true :) LindaW19 Glen Bredon isn't planning to support them in ProSel. He might be persuaded to change his mind, I guess. Spottysoft One other thing I saw... the SuperDrive card does not support 5.25" drives. :( (not that it'll matter to most folks..but it should be noted..:) AFL JoeyS Hmmm... Spotty, isn't the Slot 6 Disk Port still available, even with the SuperDrive card installed and active?? (i.e. you should be able to plug a 5.25" drive directly into the back of the machine, even with a SuperDrive card in the machine). Rook2 Not programs , just disc files? JoshuaT256 I'm sure Greg will give in and complain about doing it, just like he did with the Non-ProDOS FST thing AFC JohnC Glen would have to rewrite major portions of his code Linda...that was one of the reasons that he gave Spottysoft Joey... I'm not sure.... nobody has said anything.... but if you put the... SD card in Slot 5 and set it to "Your Card"... what does it do to the "Disk Port" setting in slot 6?? AFL JoeyS Absolutely nothing, Spotty. JoshuaT256 As long as you don't put the superdrive controller in slot 6, the port on the back will still use them AFL Marty Right Joe, but PCs can write to 1.4 meg 5.25" disks. It'd be nice to have a way to read them too. AFL JoeyS Although the Utilities in ProSel-16 should already be fairly FST independent. LindaW19 I would think it would be nice to use the 1.4 MB floppies for Prosel backups. JoshuaT256 It's interesting to note that DD Deluxe has supported 1.4 meg disks for YEARS! AFL JoeyS 1.2 meg 5.25"s, actually, Marty. Yes; I believe that AE 5.25" TransDrives should be directly supported, though, so you could at least read 360K 5.25" floppies. AFL Marty Whatever. What's .2 meg among friends. LindaW19 Duh. DD Deluxe? AFL JoeyS An old packing utility, Linda. It and most of its cousins went out the window when ShrinkIt came along... JoshuaT256 The FST will read MS-DOS disks "how ever you can get them into the computer." Floppies, syquests, etc Rook2 FST? AFL JoeyS FST = Filing System Translator, Rook... a gadget for GS/OS that lets it read disks from other computers, directly. Spottysoft So.... the SmartPort controller will still handle slot 6 even with slot 5 set to "your card"?? AFL JoeyS It should, yes. LindaW19 I'd like to dl PC stuff with my GS. Guess I'd need a R/W FST for that? JoshuaT256 That's right Spottysoft. Rook2 Where do you get an FST AFC Ted It's part of the system software AFL Marty You get FSTs from Apple on GS System Disks. AFL JoeyS Right, Linda. You'll have to wait a little while yet... JoshuaT256 With slot 5 off, the port on the back still works, but 3.5s just aren't recognized. AFC JohnC Now if someone would just invent a "slot board extension" so that I can use all of these cards...I'd be happy!!!! AFL JoeyS Only from Apple, Rook. They come on the IIgs System Disks. Right now FST's are available for ProDOS, HFS (Mac disks), High Sierra CD-ROM's, and AppleShare (networking). Rook2 Are they on sys 6 AFL Marty They are. AFC SteveB Yuppers AFL JoeyS Yes, Rook. JoshuaT256 If GS/OS ever went to the 14-slot model (minimal support is there), things would be much easier! AFC JohnC That's true Joshua!!!!! Rook2 But you need a FDHD, right? JoshuaT256 An FDHD is only required for high-density Mac disks or for MS-DOS disks. AFL Marty No... You need an FDHD to use the MS DOS FST (which isn't available yet) or to read/write Macintosh high density disks. AFL JoeyS Nope, Rook... only for the (imminent, but not yet available) MS-DOS FST will you need a FDHD. Read and write to Mac disks and CD-ROMs, Rook, as well as ProDOS disks. Rook2 Ah, what can I do with apple sys 6 FST AFL Marty Are you using System 6 now? Rook2 yes AFL Marty Then you're using an FST. (the ProDOS FST) LindaW19 Copy Mac disks in the System 6 finder, formatting if you need to. AFL Marty If you have the HFS FST installed you can read and write Macintosh 800K disks, and format them. LindaW19 Copy TT fonts off of Mac disks for use with Pointless... AFL JoeyS Rook: The HFS (Mac) FST isn't installed by default when you install System 6.0, but the Installer will do it for you under the "Custom Install" button. JoshuaT256 I talked with Dave about modifying some Finder calls a bit so I could write an intelligent copy extension that'd drop DAs, INITs, etc, in the right folders when you droppd them on the System folder. AFL JoeyS GMTA Joshua. %) Both Steve and I have such projects planned... JoshuaT256 We should get together then. Id also like to do an extension to compare rVersions and dates when copying and display intelligent messages like the Mac. AFC SteveB Did we ever decide which one of us was gonna stab at it, Joe? :) AFL JoeyS Yeah, I think I was going to take that one, and you were going to take the strip FX... :) JoshuaT256 The idea was also brought up of an extension to make icons run away from the mouse pointer... :) AFL JoeyS Hmmm, Josh... interesting idea. I didn't have that sort of sophistication in mind... basically just something to route copied files to the correct sub-folder. I've got several ideas of how to implement it, and about half the code written. LindaW19 Is there any way for the Finder to tell you there's not enough room on the floppy to copy the selected files (like the Mac). JoshuaT256 No there isn't Linda, but that's another neat extension idea! AFL JoeyS Drop me a note on that idea sometime, Josh, if ya' want... AFC SteveB (CC me too, please.) AFL JoeyS Linda, sure it's possible via Finder Extensions. HOWEVER, you'd probably want an override button on that sort of warning dialog: because ProDOS can sparse files, sometimes it's possible for files to fit on a volume even though they "shouldn't" fit. LindaW19 Glad to hear it's doable. Wish I could do it ;) SPEEDLIMIT Joey.. would it be cool for me to create a Finder Extention Folder in the System folder... for some reason when I upgraded to Systme 6 it wasn't made AFC JohnC Speed...you have to create that folder yourself Rook2 Will we be talking about program launchers tonite? AFL JoeyS That topic's been deferred 'til next week, Rook, though if you've got any particular questions we'd be glad to help ya' out... :) AFL Marty By the way, do any of you recall rumors about a disk doubler type utility? Rook2 Is there a disc doubler for the IIgs? AFL Marty There is a disk doubler promised. Rook2 Like for PC's AFL Marty The utility is called "AutoArc" and it will be published by Econ. Says here it will be available in mid September. LindaW19 So it's not just a GS+ Blatent rumor, then? AFL JoeyS Cool! :) JoshuaT256 AutoArc? Perhaps I should have spent more time at the Econ booth. AFL JoeyS Speaking of which... any of y'all have a little more information on that Universe Master thing?? AFL Marty Econ did not have it available for demonstration. AFL JoeyS I've heard NOTHING about that one... %) AFC SteveB [TEX does allow you to select multiple files...in my case, 208 files :)] Spottysoft AutoArc.... sound likes a new car battery.... :D Rook2 Any launchers available in software library you recomend? LindaW19 UtilityLaunch!!!! IMHO, of course :) AFL JoeyS On the IIgs, Rook? Ummm, you might try UtilityLaunch (use "Search Software Libraries" to search for "UtilityLaunch")... that's one of the better alternatives. SPEEDLIMIT <-- tried everying and now I'm back to the Finder to Launch everything ;) AFL JoeyS ProSel is also an outstanding commercial choice; you can find out more about that in the ProSel Company Support area here in AUT... :) AFC JohnC UtilityLaunch, Powerlaunch to name two Rook! AFL Marty What do you want to know about Universe Master? AFL JoeyS Oh, well, anything, Marty. Unlike most of the topics discussed so far, I know NOTHING about "Universe Master". %) JoshuaT256 And neither do I, since I ran out of money before I could buy a copy! AFL Marty Universe Master was being touted as "competition for ProSel." It provides (according to the brochure)... file backup and restore, data compression and password encryption,... recovery for deleted or damaged files, volume analysis & optimization,... ASCII editor, single/batch file copy & deletion batch file, script based backups etc. LindaW19 Is Universe Master a desktop application? AFL Marty Yes. AFL Marty As of show time, it did not handle HFS volumes. AFL JoeyS Hmmm... fascinating. Passing by the promo stuff, Marty, how'd it =look=? AFL Marty It -looks- good... AFL JoeyS Cool. LindaW19 Such a modest name for it, too! AFL Marty but I had private conversations with two individuals whose opinions I trust... and who observed Universe Master attempting to fix a hard drive directory. Both individuals told me that it was unable to repair it. I think I will stick with ProSEL for volume repair, backup, and optimizations. AFC SteveB (Anyone know if the "strip line feeds" options turns 'em into CR's? :) AFL JoeyS (No, Steve, it just removes them.) SPEEDLIMIT ,-- My finder Looks like ICONs from Mars, but it more fun that way :) SPEEDLIMIT I need to look at some of the DL's Quick.. wanted to ask a few questions about some :) AFL JoeyS Shoot, Speed... :) JoshuaT256 I pity the poor programmers who have to write HFS disk utilities! :) SPEEDLIMIT I know I'm going to sound stupid, but I couldn't make heads or tails what this does... File Extender v1.00 NDA LindaW19 I think I understand File Extender but I haven't found any advantage to it. LindaW19 Open the FE NDA, open a file and whatever action the Finder would have taken with that file, FE will do it. Such as... play the sound, or the song, or open TeachReader, etc. JoshuaT256 File Extender has uses, Linda. For instance, I can open Server Aliases and mount servers anywhere. AFC JohnC FE allows you to do those things that you do in the finder with certain extensions to do in a program that supports NDAs without leaving the program AFL JoeyS Correct, Linda. The basic idea is so if you have Finder Extensions for that sort of thing, you DON'T need to have redundant NDA's, etc. to handle the same tasks. SPEEDLIMIT Linda... would it add the File Extenders to the other programs :) that would be cool :) AFL JoeyS Yes, basically, Speed. LindaW19 But since I use UtilityLaunch so much, I do have those NDAs already. I figure FE has its uses and the server mounting looks like a good one. AFL Marty I saw a very interesting application called Animasia 3D. GerryR5 I heard about that Marty..tell me about it? :) AFL JoeyS That was mentioned in passing earlier, Marty... want to give us some more details?? :) AFL Marty Creates 3D animations, edits in full perspective mode... creates 3D shapes using a variety of tools. AFL Marty I particularly liked the way it generates solids by rotating 2D shapes about an axis you define. AFL Marty Imports and exports in DXF format. AFL Marty The program seemed very close to completion. I think AGR may be having the author in for a chat one of these days. JoshuaT256 Animasia 3-D will be great for schools since it can read AutoCAD DXF files. AFL JoeyS Sounds good, Marty! Yeah, it sounds VERY nice... the AutoCAD import/export support alone is worth ton JoshuaT256 For all of you programmers, Resource Central now has ALL the System 6.0 docs, including the System 6.0 Programmers Reference (from ByteWorks) and printed versions of the May 1992 Tech/FileType Notes -- I should really be _doing_ something now...